Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??

I build the neck as straight as possible (I-beam gluing jig to get board on neck within .003 of dead flat), then fret after it goes on the body (level and final radius the board a couple days after the neck goes on...time for any excess water added to the extension area to be gone). After fretting, I adjust the frets to level with the two way truss rod (usually not much if any tweak required), then use 12 lbs of lead shot at the body joint with support at nut and at the tailblock to see where relief will go under string tension. I have been seeing .004-.006, which is exactly where I want relief under tension. I remove the weight and recheck level, then level/crown/polish and get on with nut and saddle work. FWIW, I use HHG for fretting, and find it's quick to clean out at refret time. Seems to keep everything well connected to the fretboard.

Author:	Corky Long [ Sat May 15, 2010 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
So, I'm getting closer to building guitars with predictable and acceptable action, but the challenge I continue to face is the issue of relief, and planing a flat fretboard, fretting it, and stringing it up, and expecting relief to magically appear, and in all the right places. As a result, what I experience is phantom buzzess when the action gets close to what I like. Is this a relief issue? I dont' think it's frets out of alignment....(when I sight down the neck, it looks very, very straight.) What am I missing? I suspect there's some secret sauce here. Thanks!, in advance.

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Sat May 15, 2010 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
If it's very straight then try putting some relief in it. An Erlewine neck jig and learning to use it might help too.

Author:	Robert Renick [ Sat May 15, 2010 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
I don't have much of an answer for you, but I look forward to the replies on the thread. I think it may help those with authorative answers to give some more description of your set up process. I use a short straight edge to find my buzzes, and am always amazed when the slightest rock of the straight edge is the cause for a buzz. I do the check with the strings on, then lift the strings with a chopstick and file a bit, then go back and recrown. Keeping the strings on really helps to find the string path and accuratley locate the issue. (Not sure why I use a chop stick, but the first time I did this, I can guess what I had for lunch, and the chop stick just stayed in the set up kit.) I hear the Everett set up DVD is a good one, certainly on my list, if you have not seen Robbie's luthier de jour on set up, I found that helpful too. Rob

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Sat May 15, 2010 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
The best fretting tapes out there are the Erlewine fret tapes and he gets somewhat into set up and the neck jig a little. Too much stuff in them to explain. His setup tapes are worth it too.

Author:	Mark A Thorpe [ Sun May 16, 2010 7:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
Like Chris said, try putting some relief in the neck by adjusting the truss rod. A flat neck is not necessarily a good thing, the string does not vibrate in a flat plane it vibrates in sort of a football shape. By adding relief in the neck you follow the natural vibration of the string. If you get the action too low on a flat neck you will get a buzz. It doesn't take much of an adjustment to counteract that buzz, but if you get a buzz while fretting in a certain area then you may have some frets that are unlevel and you will need to do a little fret work. That's my take on it.

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Author:	ChuckB [ Sun May 16, 2010 8:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
I also build the neck as flat as possible, level and crown frets after neck is completly installed as Todd described. This seems to produce the most consistent results for me. I usually end up with ,003 to .005 relief without touching the truss rod. That is on a neck with two 1/8 x 3/8 CF rods and Martin two way truss rod. If you are looking to get really low action that is buzz free with the proper relief, you might want to try a compound radius fretboard, if you do not already do so. It made a difference for me. Another thing not to overlook is the players attack. Chuck

Author:	Terence Kennedy [ Sun May 16, 2010 8:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
Do you snug up the truss rod when you level the fretboard with the neck on Todd? I usually have to with the 1/8 x 3/8 carbon bars or it won't pull into enough relief after it's fretted. I also use 10-12 lbs on the shoulders to check the profile after fretting and it does seem to give a very accurate picture of what the neck will do under string tension. I usually check everything under tension after I've fretted to 13 or 14 so I can still sand some drop off into the extension if there is not enough. That's something I still have trouble predicting until the neck is fretted and under load. That's usually the first thing the old timers check at the store where I sell. If they don't see a slight drop off in the extension I get the "look"

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Sun May 16, 2010 9:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
My guess is Todd has this link but for those who don't here's a link for a neck jig. http://api.ning.com/files/HAVVJu2zjUSpk ... NwUX-p69br Also see Stewmac's instructions for the jig. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... ns#details I certainly agree with what Todd has said about doing fret jobs as a way of learning the fretting skills. The people that I see doing great setups are usually those doing good repair and a lot of refrets. That's why the Erlewine Tapes (the full set) are worth it and the investment. You just need to bite the bullet and get these tapes or take some classes. To me the must have Video serious are the Basic Fretting and Advance Fretting Vol. 1 & 2 http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Video,_DVD/ ... es#details And Larry Robinson's Basic, Intermidiate and Advance Inlay. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Video,_DVD/ ... ideos.html Here's my home made Neck Jig. And if you make a jig Then this is also handy to have. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Video,_DVD/ ... k_Jig.html The one thing about the neck jig is you can see what the neck is doing under different strings sizes stress.

Author:	Ed Haney [ Sun May 16, 2010 9:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
Todd Stock wrote: I build the neck as straight as possible (I-beam gluing jig to get board on neck within .003 of dead flat), then fret after it goes on the body (level and final radius the board a couple days after the neck goes on...time for any excess water added to the extension area to be gone). After fretting, I adjust the frets to level with the two way truss rod (usually not much if any tweak required), then use 12 lbs of lead shot at the body joint with support at nut and at the tailblock to see where relief will go under string tension. I have been seeing .004-.006, which is exactly where I want relief under tension. I remove the weight and recheck level, then level/crown/polish and get on with nut and saddle work. FWIW, I use HHG for fretting, and find it's quick to clean out at refret time. Seems to keep everything well connected to the fretboard. Todd, I like your method. I am a believer in very straight necks and very little relief (like your .004-.006 figures). Have you tried having no relief and what did you find? What do you believe to be the reason relief is needed Vs just having a dead flat neck under string tension and just raising the action to compensate? It seems to me that excessive neck relief is a way to cover the propblems of unlevel frets and non-flat necks. The same can be said for excessive action at the saddle. Ed

Author:	Terence Kennedy [ Sun May 16, 2010 10:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
Interestingly I had the formula pretty well figured out when I stopped my carbon bars at the nut but when I started running them across into the headstock it made a big difference and I had to start leveling the neck with a moderate amount of tension on the truss rod. With the bars I don't think you can count on the relief increasing that much with age. I've seen several with the bars going into the headstock back after a couple of years and the relief has not changed that much.

Author:	Steve Davis [ Sun May 16, 2010 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
Drinking two pints of Guiness

Author:	Rick Davis [ Sun May 16, 2010 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
"Excessive neck relief is a way to cover the problems of unlevel frets and non-flat necks." Yes but ... What's excessive? There are far too many people, including well-respected luthiers, who really don't understand relief. I know that I didn't until I started hanging out with a repair tech (the incomparable Cat Fox) who bludgeoned me about the importance of relief until it finally sank in. It isn't the final tweak, it's the starting point. It's that important. With brilliantly leveled frets and normal string tensions, relief on the order of 0.010" consistently gives the lowest action at the 12th without fret noise. Longer or shorter scale lengths and higher or lower tunings require adjustments, obviously. If you have NO relief, you'll have a myriad of interesting, non-musical, annoying sounds ranging from buzzing to whines that only a mosquito could love. And, if you're doing the work professionally, you'll have a really angry customer to boot. Action at the nut and the saddle has to be significantly higher on a non-relieved neck than on one with adequate curvature. Bryan Kimsey (www.bryankimsey.com) did an impressive analysis of neck relief which he has posted on his site. I learned from it and recommend it.

Author:	Ed Haney [ Mon May 17, 2010 10:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
Todd, Thanks for your detailed and easy to understand (well written) response. I too am a fan of Bryan Kimsey's approach to setup work. I use relief settings in the range that is being discussed, namely .004 to .010" with low end of that range being my main target (i.e. .005" or so). Since we're talking set-ups, in general I also shoot for near fret height on my nuts. What does "near" fret height mean? About .003 to .007" typically with the main target being the lower end of that. Thanks again, Ed

Author:	Corky Long [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
Thanks all, for the thorough and very useful responses. It certainly is true that setup, (and including geometry of neck angles) is a totally unique set of skills. I don't have an opportunity to do many repairs (or many repetitive setups), and so will need to get creative on creating a repeatable process. I've got to keep reminding myself, it's the journey as well as the destination..

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Author:	Scotty [ Wed May 19, 2010 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
Quote: I do as many refrets and setups as possible, because it's the only way to see enough of this stuff to make a difference in development of the skill set. For folks that are not doing repairs, you might have the opportunity to improve your fretwork and setup a half dozen times a year...and just like any other complex set of skills, that's not enough repetition to really matte Well said Todd. When I was building a few guitars a year, the setup was always a mysterious process. Then I became a full-time tech and now do 100's of setups a year. What was once a mystery is now an automatic process. As for relief, there is no single "best" setting: it really depends quite a bit on the guitar scale, string gauge, and of course the dynamics of of the player. Someone playing fingerstyle with a light touch can get away with a much flatter neck than someone really digging in and flatpicking bluegrass tunes.

Author:	Foster [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Repeatable process for creating consistent relief??
No one so far has mentioned (Unless I missed it) that strings do not move in a predictable arc while vibrating. String gauge, scale length and vibrating string arc all are things to consider when relief is adjusted and no two instruments are the same. I set relief by trial and error on each guitar I re-fret or set up. I've set up guitars that defy the rules with seemingly no relief (Not visible by sighting down the fingerboard) that play beautifully. Others that require more relief than what I consider a normal amount. To reiterate, each guitar is different. That's what I've learned after 40 plus years working as an owner of a guitar repair shop.