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| Wood question (adk spruce) http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27410 |
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| Author: | ADK_Frank [ Sat May 15, 2010 8:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Wood question (adk spruce) |
Have some scraps of red spruce(adirondack spruce) dug out of my fathers wood pile this is what they look like after I planed them (below). They are flat sawn pieces. Will they be suitable for a top for either an acoustic build or semi-hollow top? On a side note, unfortunately and to my dismay the rest of the tree became a hay wagon 
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| Author: | Corky Long [ Sat May 15, 2010 9:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
Well.......not sure about the semi - hollow top, but for a steel string top, there's no way. Could be kind of a cool project for a laminated back and side process. But I think you'll get consistent feedback from the folks here that quartersawn is the only way to go for a top. Any wood lef that's close to quartersawn? Sorry. |
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| Author: | runamuck [ Sat May 15, 2010 10:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
I've never seen spruce that color before. Don't use it for an instrument. |
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| Author: | ADK_Frank [ Sun May 16, 2010 6:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
Hmm that kind of sucks I do have a red spruce thats ready to drop out in the woods looks like I am waiting a year for an Acoustic top. Any comments about using it for a semi-hllow or even a chambered top? @Runamuck should do a little a research on Martin guitars here's a link http://www.adirondackspruce.com/guitarwood2.htm (Don't mean this in a negative way.) |
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| Author: | brenbrenCT [ Mon May 17, 2010 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
runamuck wrote: I've never seen spruce that color before. Don't use it for an instrument. why not? if it was quartered and dried properly i'd use it. might be a little worried about resin and overall density, but folks make guitars out of everything. |
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| Author: | ADK_Frank [ Mon May 17, 2010 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
Agreed need to look beyond the commonly used woods. Me being poor but having access too large amounts of wooded land, work horses, tractors and a portable sawmill. I try to use/find the local tonewoods availlable. Mostly it seems is spruce and maple. Though if anyone familiar with the adirondack region in northern NY can point me in the way of other tonewoods I could use in this area I would appreciate it. |
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| Author: | Terry Stowell [ Mon May 17, 2010 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
Frank, where in the Adk's are you? I'm from Schroon Lake area. You might find some black walnut, cherry. Of course cedar... You will likely be able to find something in someone's barn quicker than in the form of a tree, regardless of your machinery... long story. Keep looking and be persistent if you have more time than money. But those boards pictured above aren't quartered. They need to be quartered all the way across. Not just for strength, but also stability. Welcome to the OLF! |
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| Author: | ADK_Frank [ Mon May 17, 2010 8:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
I'm in Saranac Lake. Thanks for the welcome been dickering around here for a year or two since I got into building ( so addicting like crack) alot of info here if I search but I feel when my needs specific I need to post. Also thats what i figured about the flat plane wood. I need to dig through the jumbled pile of wood and hopefull come across some center cuts of flat sawed spruce. I assume those are pretty much the same as quater sawed cuts. Correct me if I am wrong. |
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| Author: | runamuck [ Mon May 17, 2010 9:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
brenbrenCT wrote: runamuck wrote: I've never seen spruce that color before. Don't use it for an instrument. why not? if it was quartered and dried properly i'd use it. might be a little worried about resin and overall density, but folks make guitars out of everything. I apologise for my brevity. I've seen alot of adirondack spruce over the years but never the color in the photo above. I was skeptical that it actually was Ad. Spruce - not to say that it isn't. Perhaps the color of the photo is misleading, maybe my monitor is not accurate, or maybe there is in fact Adi Spruce that comes in bright yellow tones. But whatever it is, I agree: it certainly need to be quarter sawn |
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| Author: | brenbrenCT [ Tue May 18, 2010 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
ADK_Frank wrote: I'm in Saranac Lake. Thanks for the welcome been dickering around here for a year or two since I got into building ( so addicting like crack) alot of info here if I search but I feel when my needs specific I need to post. Also thats what i figured about the flat plane wood. I need to dig through the jumbled pile of wood and hopefull come across some center cuts of flat sawed spruce. I assume those are pretty much the same as quater sawed cuts. Correct me if I am wrong. flat sawn would not be equivalent to quarter sawn. there is a video by chris p that shows how to split bracewood, and he shows that by turning a board 90 degrees you can get some nice quarter sawn pieces from a flat sawn board, but in the widths needed for tops, if the piece was flatsawn, it probably shouldn't be used for a guitar plate. not to say no one has EVER tried it, but there's too much good info and tales of woe regarding the use of flat sawn pieces for plates. b |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Tue May 18, 2010 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
What's on the pic doesn't look like red spruce, or even spruce at all IMHO. But what do I know? Given the amount of labour that goes into building an instrument, the wood cost is almost irrelevant. You can find all kinds of good tops for less than $30. Flat-sawn has as much stiffness, if not more, than quartersawn. However since softwoods absorb/release moisture much faster flat-sawn will be absolutely unsuitable for a flat top. A carved top may be different. Rift-sawn is the worst in terms of cross grain stiffness, but as usual there are exceptions. So for a flat top, quartersawn is best. If it drifts a bit on the edges on the lower bout it's perfectly OK. Hardwood flat-sawn for back and sides are perfectly fine too, and actually preferable to rift sawn IMO. For woods like Spanish cedar or mahogany it makes virtually no difference in function. I bet cherry would be fine too. It's a visual thing, personally I don't like the "cathedral" figure of flat-sawn. You also could join 4 or more piece tops as it is difficult to find trees large enough for guitar tops, even in the Adirondacks I bet. Martin did it, Torres did it, it's just more labour. |
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| Author: | ADK_Frank [ Tue May 18, 2010 3:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
@Laurent Brondel comment thanks that was alot of info. Would rift sawing produce more usuable wood from the smaller dia. trees, considering the biggest spruce around here would be around 24" that is unless I raided state land (hehe jk I wouldn't). If not I will just end up following Shanes post, guide on quarter sawing and piecing the boards together. |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Wed May 19, 2010 3:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
You're sure the trees are Adi spruces? Just because you're in the adirondacks doesn't mean the trees are all Red Spruce... |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Wed May 19, 2010 9:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
ADK_Frank wrote: Would rift sawing produce more usuable wood from the smaller dia. trees, considering the biggest spruce around here would be around 24" that is unless I raided state land. Frank, I wrote before that rift sawn produces (generally) the least cross grain stiffness. You don't want that. For tops you want quartersawn spruce, as stiff as can be. Small trees can be used for 3 or 4 piece tops, but the perfectly quartersawn surface will obviously be smaller with more drift on the edges.
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| Author: | ADK_Frank [ Wed May 19, 2010 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
Mattia Valente wrote: You're sure the trees are Adi spruces? Just because you're in the adirondacks doesn't mean the trees are all Red Spruce... Yes I know the difference. There is white spruce, red spruce (the one all call adirondack), and black spruce (small trees). |
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| Author: | ADK_Frank [ Wed May 19, 2010 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Wood question (adk spruce) |
Laurent Brondel wrote: ADK_Frank wrote: Would rift sawing produce more usuable wood from the smaller dia. trees, considering the biggest spruce around here would be around 24" that is unless I raided state land. Frank, I wrote before that rift sawn produces (generally) the least cross grain stiffness. You don't want that. For tops you want quartersawn spruce, as stiff as can be. Small trees can be used for 3 or 4 piece tops, but the perfectly quartersawn surface will obviously be smaller with more drift on the edges.Oops I missied that. I went ahead today quartered a white spruce for practice. Using the bandsaw sawmill. Will post some pics in the near future. The news my brother in law is friends with a professor at Paul Smith College (forestry program) and he good knowledge of tonewoods and what is local so i will be drilling him soon enough. Thanks for the input all. I am learning and this place is definitely a good resource. |
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