Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

planning a new shop - advice?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27251		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Heath Blair [ Mon May 03, 2010 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  planning a new shop - advice?
well, my wife and i are buying another home and im dreaming about shop space. ive been working out of the two car portion of a three car garage for the last 5 years or so. only the last two or three of that has been guitar building though. the new house only has a two car garage, but it has a decent size back yard. id really like to build a dedicated shop out back and im wondering what kind of spaces you guys work in. i feel like ill mostly be building guitars from this point out, but id like to keep it open to general woodworking just in case i get the itch. i currently have a cabinet table saw with 7' rails, 8" jointer, 15" planer, performax 10-20 drum sander, 2HP cyclone dust collector, and a number of other small machines such as a 9" bandsaw, small drill press, routers, etc. id like to eventually get a large bandsaw and perhaps a larger drum (wide belt?) sander.

what kind of dimensions would you suggest? id like to have a "dirty" room for large dust producing machines and a clean room for handwork, etc. the back yard is 60' x 60' (please dont suggest a 55' x 55' shop :D ).
Author:  Rick Davis [ Mon May 03, 2010 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Put your money into climate control and a comfortable floor. Everything else is gravy.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Mon May 03, 2010 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
My shop's only 20' by 30' and I'm in it full time. I have a cabinet saw too and have it set up so that I can always cut full sheets of plywood. I do have some extra storage for large stuff like cases but most everything fits. It can get claustrophobic but the rent and the heating bill make up for it.
Author:  Foster [ Mon May 03, 2010 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Just build it twice as big as what you think you need. I did and still ran out of space.
Author:  Greg [ Mon May 03, 2010 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
give yourself a 10' ceiling to manipulate 4X8 sheets. You will thank yourself.
Author:  sanaka [ Tue May 04, 2010 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Greg wrote:
give yourself a 10' ceiling to manipulate 4X8 sheets. You will thank yourself.


Or at least 9'. A 4x8 sheet is just shy of 9' on the diagonal. I couldn't do 10', but did 9 and have found it just fine. My main lighting is set flush to the 9' though, not protruding down.

I'm very curious as to good input on Heath's query. My shop is 20x30 like Kent's and will I hope eventually be mostly guitar oriented.

Peace,
Sanaka
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Tue May 04, 2010 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
My shop is about as big as Kent's, and I too am in it pretty much full time. Compact shops make sense not only in terms of cost, they can also be very effective as far as work flow goes. They force you to consider closely what to keep in it, to keep those tidy, and your work areas must be well planned for it to work effectively, all things which are a good idea anyways. I have one room where I keep the big, noisy dust producers, and another room where I do all assembly. I have different work stations along the walls, a general assembly table in the middle. I also agree with Rick about climate control and the floor, they are both on my upgrade list...

Image


I know many professional builders who work in shops that are even smaller, and of course many have far bigger shops, but this is about perfect for me. The tiny room outside the machine room is where I keep DC, and my spray booth is detached, BTW. I also have some storage elsewhere.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Tue May 04, 2010 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Rick Davis wrote:
Put your money into climate control and a comfortable floor. Everything else is gravy.


And don't forget the lighting and electricity.... two more things you can't have enough of.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Tue May 04, 2010 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
I'm in the same position. We just moved into our new place and I'm currently finishing off the inside of a 40' x 60' shop. My main consideration is climate control closely followed by dust and fume control. To that end I'm fully insulating the outside walls to R-19 and blowing in insulation to cover the ceiling to a R-38 value. R-38 might be a little light but there already exists a layer of insulation inside the roof now.

I'm making three seperate rooms inside. 1. A 15' x 24' studio/office 2. A 15' x 16' dust/spray room. 3. A 10' x 20' wood storage room.

The dust/spray room is being treated specially. There is a variable speed exhaust fan in the room which has two boxes that swing in place to cover it. One box is made of foam insulation in a frame and the other is the same thing with filters. The idea is that one can swing the insulated box over the fan when it's not in use so that the room remains sealed and insulated. The other box is used to trap dust and fumes when the fan is in use. The fan has two speeds....one is 6000cfm the other is 7200cfm. The door leading into the room is weather sealed as is all the drywall and taping. The entry door will have dust filters mounted in it. This room will be very effective controlling dust.

The rest is open space in which I'll have some cnc machines, tables, saws, shelves, and workstations.

I'm painting everything pure white and using T5 lighting throughout (unless someone has a better idea). It will also be plumbed for compressed air throughout with drop down flex tubing everywhere.

One thing I am adamant about......no electrical in the walls. Everything is run through conduit and mounted outside the wall.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Tue May 04, 2010 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Zlurgh wrote:

I'm painting everything pure white and using T5 lighting throughout (unless someone has a better idea).


T8
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Tue May 04, 2010 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
forgetting the other essential ... a toilet :D

Glenn
Author:  Heath Blair [ Tue May 04, 2010 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
thnaks to all for pitching in.

i like the idea of putting the dust collector outside in its own small room. saves room inside and cuts down on noise. what considerations should i take when placing the DC outisde the main shop area. if there are neighbors nearby, will they be more annoyed with the DC outside? any insurance problems?

stuart, why no electrical in the walls?
Author:  brenbrenCT [ Tue May 04, 2010 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Heath Blair wrote:
thnaks to all for pitching in.

i like the idea of putting the dust collector outside in its own small room. saves room inside and cuts down on noise. what considerations should i take when placing the DC outisde the main shop area. if there are neighbors nearby, will they be more annoyed with the DC outside? any insurance problems?

stuart, why no electrical in the walls?

i won't speak for stuart, but i ran all my electrical in EMT conduit for the plain simple reason that it's a hell of a lot easier to pull a new 220 20amp circuit through conduit than to demo the sheet rock. i've got 4" conduit to the shop, then 1" branch conduits off of that. my drops in the center of the shop are on uni-strut. i'm spoiled though, my best friend owns an electrical company, and i own a general contracting company :twisted:

brendan
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Tue May 04, 2010 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Heath Blair wrote:
stuart, why no electrical in the walls?


For utility's sake.....as brenbren describes. This gives you the ability to alter the system without drywall trauma. The resale value and salability of your shop will increase for this reason also.

But primarily...it's almost impossible to have an electrical fire when it's outside the walls and inside conduit. :P
Author:  Ed Haney [ Tue May 04, 2010 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Kent Chasson wrote:
My shop's only 20' by 30' and I'm in it full time. ... It can get claustrophobic but the rent and the heating bill make up for it.


Kent,

Please count your blessings. bliss Many (most) of us see your "only 20'x30'" shop as huge. :o I believe that your 600 sq. ft. is surely bigger than the majority of shops for luthiers. I'm in 8'x20', but I am grateful for my 160 sq ft. [clap] There are others working in even smaller spaces as I'm sure you know.

Ed
Author:  Ed Haney [ Tue May 04, 2010 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Heath Blair wrote:
thnaks to all for pitching in.

i like the idea of putting the dust collector outside in its own small room. saves room inside and cuts down on noise. what considerations should i take when placing the DC outside the main shop area. if there are neighbors nearby, will they be more annoyed with the DC outside? any insurance problems?

stuart, why no electrical in the walls?


If you do this, how will you replace the heated or cooled air (conditioned air) that will be sucked out of your shop in large quantities when the system is on and how will you filter the incoming air that replaces what you suck out?

If you duck the dust collector exhaust into your room you will avoid this problem, buy you'll need a HEPA filter on the DC exhaust.

Ed
Author:  Heath Blair [ Tue May 04, 2010 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Ed Haney wrote:
Heath Blair wrote:
thnaks to all for pitching in.

i like the idea of putting the dust collector outside in its own small room. saves room inside and cuts down on noise. what considerations should i take when placing the DC outside the main shop area. if there are neighbors nearby, will they be more annoyed with the DC outside? any insurance problems?

stuart, why no electrical in the walls?


If you do this, how will you replace the heated or cooled air (conditioned air) that will be sucked out of your shop in large quantities when the system is on and how will you filter the incoming air that replaces what you suck out?

If you duck the dust collector exhaust into your room you will avoid this problem, buy you'll need a HEPA filter on the DC exhaust.

Ed


thats a good point. the answer is, im not sure. most likely the "dirty" room will not be climate controlled; only the "clean" room. my grizzly 2HP cyclone is supposedly rated to 0.2 microns. not sure how accurate that is, but i suppose it could be plumbed back in to the room. thanks for pointing that out.
Author:  Ed Haney [ Wed May 05, 2010 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Many people will tell you how important light is, but may not give you the details to get it "right" (whatever that is, namely, right for you).

I put in the 4' T8 electronic ballast fluorescent lights for no noise and higher efficiency. This is what most people will do at this point I think. But I also spent a little extra and bought 5000 Kelvin tubes for them. This gives me noon day sun light so that colors look the way they should to avoid coloring mistakes as much as possible. This Kelvin rating is what photographers use, so it also makes the room good for taking accurate photos of my work. I know the yellowish amber light is standard, but it colors everything funny, which you might not realize until you take something outdoors and realize your work does not look like (as good as) you thought it did.

I also put in twice the number of light fixtures that are typically recommended for the room size (for me I put in 4 each 2-tube fixtures (8 total tubes) in 160 sq. ft.) This is REALLY nice for night time work when no daylight can get into the room. Its feel great. I have 2 switches, one for 2 fixtures and another for the other 2 fixtures. But I find myself always running all 4 fixtures.

Ed
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Wed May 05, 2010 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Ed Haney wrote:
Many people will tell you how important light is, but may not give you the details to get it "right" (whatever that is, namely, right for you).

I put in the 4' T8 electronic ballast fluorescent lights for no noise and higher efficiency. This is what most people will do at this point I think. But I also spent a little extra and bought 5000 Kelvin tubes for them. This gives me noon day sun light so that colors look the way they should to avoid coloring mistakes as much as possible. This Kelvin rating is what photographers use, so it also makes the room good for taking accurate photos of my work. I know the yellowish amber light is standard, but it colors everything funny, which you might not realize until you take something outdoors and realize your work does not look like (as good as) you thought it did.

I also put in twice the number of light fixtures that are typically recommended for the room size (for me I put in 4 each 2-tube fixtures (8 total tubes) in 160 sq. ft.) This is REALLY nice for night time work when no daylight can get into the room. Its feel great. I have 2 switches, one for 2 fixtures and another for the other 2 fixtures. But I find myself always running all 4 fixtures.

Ed


Thanks for the detailed information, Ed. I was wondering about coverage for my dust/spray room and that covered the subject completely. Nice!
Author:  Rod True [ Wed May 05, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Ah a new workshop (lucky so and so :D )

I would love a 20x30 shop and feel like I was swimming with space after being in my 185 sft shop for the past 5 years.

There are many great books on setting up a workshop, the one I've had my nose in a lot is this one

Image

see if it's at your library or just buy it on amazon for $15

If separating clean and dirty rooms (a good idea in my thinking) you don't need a full size wall, meaning make it out of 2x2 instead of 2x4 (every inch counts in a small space) and use 1.5" styrofoam insulation in that wall with 1/2" plywood sheeting.

If you can, go at least 9' ceiling or better yet vault one area so you can make a loft for storage (see my signature line for pics of my shop).

If you can, make a separate room for your D/C but vent it back into the shop so you don't continually cycle the ambient air in the dirty room. Make the clean room total humidity controlled, while you can just heat the dirty room (comfort is important).

Plan out your clean room well. Spend time looking at Kevin Ryan's website for some great bench ideas (other luthier sites too).

If you can, dedicate a 4x10 room for a spraybooth with filters allowing clean air to come in and vent to the outside. Also make sure you plan for the type of finish you wish to spray. All electrical switches outside the room and sealed lighting or explosion proof if spraying nitro etc...
Author:  P@uL [ Wed May 05, 2010 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
if you cant get the floorspace you need or want out of one floor. go for a second level. one of the nicest shops ive been in was a two story garage. lower level was wood storage and big machines, planer, joiner, band saw, lathe etc etc. upstairs was handwork and finishing. i always thought this was a good clean setup and it wont take up all of the back yard.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Wed May 05, 2010 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
That would be nice Paul, but quite a bit more money and you might get tired of going up and down the stairs. I would maybe do something like storage/spray booth upstairs and 2 rooms downstairs dirty and clean.

Great advice here. All I can say from my limited experience is dont skimp on wiring at all.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed May 05, 2010 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Lots of good posts here. My shop is about 260 sq. ft. and I second the idea of lots of lights. I have 6 4-tube, 4' fixtures and I run em all even though they are on a 4 and 2 switch setup.
Author:  sanaka [ Wed May 05, 2010 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Ed Haney wrote:
Many people will tell you how important light is, but may not give you the details to get it "right" (whatever that is, namely, right for you).

I put in the 4' T8 electronic ballast fluorescent lights for no noise and higher efficiency. This is what most people will do at this point I think. But I also spent a little extra and bought 5000 Kelvin tubes for them. This gives me noon day sun light so that colors look the way they should to avoid coloring mistakes as much as possible. This Kelvin rating is what photographers use, so it also makes the room good for taking accurate photos of my work. I know the yellowish amber light is standard, but it colors everything funny, which you might not realize until you take something outdoors and realize your work does not look like (as good as) you thought it did.

I also put in twice the number of light fixtures that are typically recommended for the room size (for me I put in 4 each 2-tube fixtures (8 total tubes) in 160 sq. ft.) This is REALLY nice for night time work when no daylight can get into the room. Its feel great. I have 2 switches, one for 2 fixtures and another for the other 2 fixtures. But I find myself always running all 4 fixtures.

Ed


I'd say it's about impossible to have too much light. I did like Ed for my new 20x30 shop, using ten 4-bulb T8 fixtures, yielding even a little higher 'bulb density'. However, I used 3500K bulbs because I like a softer, more incandescent-y light. The color temp thing is confusing. Indeed 5000K is a standard for computer monitors and digital imaging workflow. But flourescent bulbs have a 'CRI' (color rendering index) rating, which seems more or less independent of the color temp. The 3500K bulbs I got have a high CRI, and I've seen 5000K bulbs with a low CRI. But I think my bulbs are just OK at color rendering, so I feel the interplay of these things needs more investigation. Also, my shop walls are bare wood (open studs - no heating requirements in Hawaii), so not very reflective like white painted walls. This combined with the warm light leaves me wishing things were brighter. So the 3500K bulbs might have been a mistake. I'll probably change the bulbs to a higher, 'brighter' temp at some point. I think localized task lighting is important too, and have yet to tackle it properly.

Peace,
Sanaka
Author:  Ed Haney [ Wed May 05, 2010 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: planning a new shop - advice?
Sanaka,

You have a good point. I also looked at the CRI rating of the various tubes I was considering and chose the ones with the highest rating which were, on the tubes I bought, the ones with 5000 Kelvin temperature. I'm no light expert but I looked at what photographers were using and what the various tube manufactures were reporting about their tubes to weigh the info for my final choice. The tubes I chose had both the highest CRI rating and 5000K.

The pictures I've made in the shop look natural instead of amber or like typical fluorescent lighting.

Ed
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/