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| Antonio de Torres SE 117 http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27136 |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
I purchased the LMI plans created by Roy Courtnall for an 1888 Torres guitar. For those who may be interested, this is certainly Torres' SE117, although it is not so identified anywhere on the plans. I've checked all the specs from Jose Romanillos' book on Torres and all the measurements and layout are identical. Plus, as it was pointed out by John Abercrombie that SE 117 is the only guitar in Romanillos' catalog with a 604 mm scale length. This question came up during a recent thread about small classical guitars for young players. max |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Thanks for the info, Max. It would be a good thing if everybody started using the FE, SE #'s for the Torres guitars- it would make things a lot less confusing! Please post some messages/pics as you work on this project- it sounds interesting. Cheers John |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Jose' Romanillos and the Torres SE117 Attachment: Jose&TorresSE117.jpg
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| Author: | Ricardo [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
I built the 1888 Torres from the LMI plans with a 632 scale and absolutely love it. Attachment: torres.jpg
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| Author: | DennisK [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Ricardo wrote: I built the 1888 Torres from the LMI plans with a 632 scale and absolutely love it. Attachment: torres.jpg Very nice! I wish I still lived in Seattle area, I'd be right over to gawk at that thing and hear what it sounds like  What back/side wood is that? Oregon myrtle? I'd love to see a shot of the back too, if you have one. |
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| Author: | Ricardo [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Dennis its koa. The front is bearclaw spruce. Attachment: frontguitar.jpg Attachment: back.jpg
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
David ; It's just incredible that you have a pic of the real guitar SE 117 And Jose' !!! Your dedication to guitarmaking & your knowledge of vintage guitars & how they were made is just incredible ! It's a blessing to know you ! See ya next week ! mc ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Thanks for all the pics, guys! |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Ricardo wrote: Quote: I built the 1888 Torres from the LMI plans with a 632 scale and absolutely love it. Ricardo that's a beautiful guitar! A question though - To my eye (which isn't that great) the body of the guitar looks bigger than what the plans indicate, especially the thickness. Did you stick to the measurements of the body in the plans or do some improvising? Thanks, Max |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Looks full size to me too, perhaps it is modeled after SE 114 |
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| Author: | Ricardo [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
I stand to be corrected - its the 1888 SE 114 based on a GAL plan. Sorry 
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
I have a client coming to the shop tomorrow for the second time to (hopefully) order a guitar. I do not know how tall she is but I would be shocked if she is 5 foot 2. She is tiny. She wants and needs a smaller guitar and I ordered the plans for SE 117 for her to consider. I think it will be perfect for her and hope I get the chance to make her something that will be more comfortable to play and enjoy. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
While I am a big fan of the SE117, I think that the FE17 is a better guitar for a smaller adult. I have built the Courtnall plan for the full size Torres, three SE117s and an FE17. They each have their strengths, but my FE17 is the one that I pick up first. I built it with the tornavoz, and you can see it in the thread on it. It is smaller than the SE114, but bigger, with a much fuller sound, than the SE117. The only complaint that I have about my FE17 is that it makes all my other guitars sound so much less. I used to think that they sounded really good! Max, looking forward to your build! |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Since SE 114 was mentioned, which served as a model for many here (including me), here is a clip with the former owner Elias Barreiro playing it. For those curious what's up with the guitar, it was Francisco Tarrega's (the famous Spanish composer) third Torres and according to his widow, the favorite. The back is 3 piece Brazilian rosewood. It was the last to be sold in 1920 to a Cuban guitarist for a hefty sum of 5000 pesetas. They even used a notary to write a contract. The guitar was played until 1940 then stored for a while. Later it came on the possession of the man playing here who later moved to the USA. I think the guitar currently belongs to a collector who owns several other Torres guitars. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Stephen I whole heartily agree with Doug. FE 17 is small enough to be comfortable even with a kid but large enough to have a full range sonority. It also looks prettier. For those curious, It was made in 1864 in spruce and flamed maple and was Tarrega's main guitar for a long period and supposed to have had a marvelous tone. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Here are some side by side photos 3 guitars that I made to the three main plantillas used by Torres: the full size (ie. SE114), FE17, and SE117. You can also see the templates overlaid one over the other for a more accurate comparison, and referenced to the center of he soundhole. You can also see that from my scribbles, that the SE117 plantilla was used for a number of guitars. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
I was just checking my patterns a little more closely. If someone already had the larger Torres plantilla template and wanted to make one very, very, similar to the FE17 plantilla, they need only move the center line over 1/2", or 1.5cm, and move the tail up by the same amount, allowing the curve of the lower bout to move as well. Then blend in the lower bout curves where the meet, to make a fair curve. The two plantillas line up pretty near exactly when this is done. The center of the soundhole remains the same for both plantillas. |
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Thank you very much for the information about FE17. Everyone is correct about the situation of this being more appropriate. I have been looking and find no real answers about construction details other than the measurements in Romanillo's book and the lower transverse bar being arched to allow the fan braces to go through. I have a couple of photos and the measurements so I will develop something. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Torres kept some things constant in most of his guitars so it should be well possible to draw a close plan just by using these. Try with a 52 degrees fan spread, 90-95 degrees angle between outer and closing braces. The kite should start at 22mm from end of the guitar. It is in the book, have a look again at the drawings for FE 19, SE 83 and SE 117. These 3 are basically his 3 main plantillas and span his entire career but he didn't change these measurements.  I've been told the bridge is 165mm long. The upper corners of the bridge should intersect the center of the braces that cross there; draw a plan and see if it all fits togeher. I'll probably do it too tonight, i wanted to for a long while now. |
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Thanks Alexandru, I will keep researching.... |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
The fan focal point is 50mm from the 12th fret, with a 43 mm spread at 321mm from the 12th fret. The closing fans have a 120 degree spread and meet at 441mm from the 12th fret. I got this info from the plan drawing that Luca Waldner prepared during his restoration of the actual instrument. It used to be available on his forum, till he closed down the forum due to widespread bad manners among participants. The thin, approx 1mm, sides are an important characteristic of Torres guitars, and the backs are often 2.5mm. Give or take depending upon the wood... FE17 did have a tornavoz. I don't know if you are adventurous enough to try that. |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Now that we know that his other Torres plan from LMI is actually the SE117, does anybody know what model the Roy Courtnall 1864 Torres plan is that is available from LMI? Is it possible that this is the FE17? Wendy |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
Another question. I built a guitar from the Courtnall 1864 plan and altered the body slightly to change the scale length to 640mm. Now I am needing to build a shorter scale length for a friend and want to know if it would be ok to just move the soundhole and bridge location slightly so that I can use the same forms etc. It will probably be 630mm. Thanks, Wendy |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
No Wendy, As far as I know there is no commercially available plan of FE 17 and the measurements of Courtnall's larger plan don't correspond with the published dimensions of FE 17. Important to remember too that FE17 was heavily (and heavy handedly) restored before Luca Waldner worked on it and thus certain specs are open to debate. For instance the lower harmonic bar is thought to be an addition or replacement as well as the entire guitar heavily sanded and refinished. Courtnall's "1864" measurements are quite similar to the SE 114 plan drawn by Jeff Elliott and available through GAL. Even his "SE 117" plans are rather generic and fail to capture the essence of that guitar. I'd recommend the drawings in Romanillos for that one. Here is SE 151A which is very close the SE 117 in Dimensions. Attachment: SE151A-2.jpg Attachment: SE151A-3.jpg
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Antonio de Torres SE 117 |
And FE 17 Attachment: FE-17-002.jpg
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