vachterman wrote:
John asked most of what i wanted to ask .....
![[uncle]](./images/smilies/surrenderflagqv6.gif "Uncle")
Yeah- I kinda went crazy with the questions!
Cheers
John
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| Flamenco video http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27124 |
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Flamenco video |
I have been asked to make a non-identical twin for this '74 flamenco made in Spain. I have made a video to get the sound and will post a few progress pics as things progress. |
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| Author: | levi wytcherley [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
sounds great! I'm excited to see the one you build and how the two compare. |
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| Author: | Yukon [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Sounds like an interesting challenge. What are the parameters of a non-identical twin? |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Stephen- Thanks for the tune! Interesting project! Please post details as you work on this one, as I'm sure a lot of us would like to 'follow along'. The Ferrer has wooden pegs. Are you going to use traditional wooden pegs, or the ones with 'hidden' gears inside? I guess the owner is accustomed to dealing with wooden tuning pegs. Also, the Ferrer is cypress? What's the weight of the guitar? Are you going to use 'Alaskan cypress' aka yellow cedar , or try to source European cypress? (Is is available?) What's the string height off the soundboard? Getting that 'low' was a challenge for me when I built my first 'flamenco-ish' guitar a while ago. Skinny bridge! Cheers John |
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| Author: | vachterman [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
John asked most of what i wanted to ask so all thats left for meto do is eagerly wait for any progress! |
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Thank you for the interest fellas! Non-Identical twin means that the important parameters for playability and general aesthetic qualities are the major influence of design but this is not a copy. I get to use my details and incorporate some elements the customer wants. The major difference is that the client wants a cut away version. I did convince the client to go with machine geared pegs instead of wood. I really hate these wooden pegs. You can hear on the video that the G string is not in tune but it was close enough so I went for it. I am glad he compromised on this aspect. He was pretty gung ho about the wooden pegs but I was persuasive. I already have some Spanish cypress from LMI. I have used Mediterranean cypress before and assume it is pretty similar. We shall see. The strings are 7.25 mm from the top of the sound board to the bottom of the string. The guitars weight is 1232 grams. 660 scale with 4 compensation. There is about 3mm of elevation on the neck angle which is more than I use but it helps to lower the bridge. The action is actually 3.25 on the E strings at the 12 fret so it really could come down some but the nut would have to be higher. I am going to set up the new guitar as close as possible to this one because that is one of the conditions of the build and the customer loves this guitar so much. I have a few photos of the guitar that I will post later. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
vachterman wrote: John asked most of what i wanted to ask ..... Yeah- I kinda went crazy with the questions! Cheers John |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Stephen- You posted as I was typing...thanks for all the info! One thing that interests me is the action/setup details- most of which you have provided. (Thx!) How much (if any) relief is there in the fingerboard? I've read that some flamenco players like lots of buzz so no relief at all..... This one is going 'into the files' here. There aren't many 'build diaries' here at OLF any more; it's something I miss. Please 'post as you go', when convenient. Thanks again. John |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Spanish and Mediterranean cypress is the same thing. Spain is not an important source anymore, countries like Italy and Turkey fill in the gap. Want more questions?   OK: LB, UB and waist widths soundhole diameter Tail and heel depths Bridge length and wing thickness bracing info thickness maps if you have a Hacklinger, if you don't no problem, you can buy one for about 400$ ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")  
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
I meant Monterrey cypress not Mediterranean. This is not the first time I have messed up this name. I have Spanish cypress from where ever. LB 370 UB 280 waist 241 sound hole 88 bridge 181.5 +- 4 thick Thanks for asking about fret board relief. I need to check it. I have had all the answers on my sheet until that one. Some photos.      
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Great pics! Thanks, Stephen. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Thank you Stephen, much appreciated. It is interesting with the full height harmonic and steep closing V, very Torres! Last question, how hard is the doming? |
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Not sure to measure how hard the doming is but I will push on it when I have the guitar out of the case again and see. Here is another photo of the braces via a mirror. They are pretty much parallel. 
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Way cool, many thanks. I press on bridges too, to check the stiffness. Never do that when the owner is looking though, it can trigger some funny reactions from his part  But I was asking how "tall" the doming is. I imagine it must be rather flat considering that 3mm of neck lift... |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Nice playing Stephen, thanks. Good luck with the build. |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Hi Stephen Thanks for posting the video clip. I admire your resistance to "red light fever". I find it amazing that sitting in front of a video camera can instantaneously make me forget everything I ever learned. Did you take lessons from Juan Serrano or get the material from one of his books? You played it rather well. I will be watching with interest to see your progress on this guitar. Should be an interesting project. Thanks for sharing. Best wishes, Max |
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Yes Alexandru, The top is pretty flat but it is domed a bit. I remember putting a straightedge on it but I forgot to measure. Max, That was just a "camera test" not an actual performance. If that had been an actual performance, actual performance would have suffered greatly. As a camera test the performance was adequate. About as well as I ever play it. I learned the flamenco songs I know from a Juan Serrano book from Mel Bay. Basic Techniques is the title. It is great because it has TAB and I cannot read music. |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Stephen, I was fortunate to take lessons from Juan when he lived in Detroit several years (decades?) ago. Like you, I never learned to read music and use TAB all the time. Good luck on your build. Your work is impressive so I'll bet it turns out very well. Best wishes, Max |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Thanks Stephen. Max, if it makes you feel better, I have the same problem. I could rehearse a piece for hours, it would run decently 15 times in a row, then I start the camera...disaster, i forget whole sections, press different locations, different strings, i could even drop the guitar on the floor  Same happens if someone watching and that person is a better player
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Here are a couple of photos of the build so far. I have made a new solera for the larger body size. I have also drafted a plan of the brace lay out.         
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| Author: | jlneng [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Hi Stephen, After making a few of these animals I have some words for you. There is a delicate balance between the dome of the top, and the forward tilt of the neck. With what I have seen of your solera pictures, you will need about 3mm ramp from the nut to the 12th fret to get to 7mm string height at the saddle with a good low flamenco action. It takes alot of adjustment to get the action just right. I have a 1942 Barbero that is 7mm string height at the saddle. A perfect flamenco set up. The bridges get kind of thin with this approach. Santos Hernandez made 300 guitars this way and most are winners and some are legendary. I would check out Roy Courtnall's plan's for same. Everything you have done looks good so far. I was lucky enough to play a 1933 Santos Hernandez blanca in Tucson this week, the guitar matched Courtnall's plans to a tee. The reason I bring up the Santos is that the guitar you are trying to copy, looks alot like a Santos. The bracing is a little different, but the plantilla looks about the same. I have recently played some fine spanish flamenco guitars that had no forward ramp, alot of relief planed in the fretboard/neck, and none sounded muy flamenco.................... |
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Hey John I would love to see some photos of your set up make sure I am doing this right. I appreciate the help. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sat May 01, 2010 4:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
jlneng wrote: Hi Stephen, I have recently played some fine spanish flamenco guitars that had no forward ramp, alot of relief planed in the fretboard/neck, and none sounded muy flamenco.................... So what was wrong about them? Too much doming? More important, was the rest of the construction true to the "old school" flamenco guitars? It seems many builders in Spain have moved on from the old sound (not for the better imo). |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Sat May 01, 2010 7:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Alexandru, Thanks for sharing. Strangley, it does make me feel a bit better to know that I'm not the only one with this "disease". Stephen, Good looking solera! Also, it is interesting to see that the 'fan' braces on this guitar are parallel. The only other guitars like that I have seen were made by Felix Manzanero. Max |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sat May 01, 2010 7:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flamenco video |
Not sure I' have enough guts to make them parallel
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