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| Best combination ? top + b&s http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27085 |
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| Author: | fransoos [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Best combination ? top + b&s |
Hi, What should be the best combination, tonewise, regarding top + b&s ? Br not included because it's in EU not obtainable. There seem's to be a growing interest in "looks" rather then sound. what are your -building- experiences. |
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| Author: | Frank Cousins [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
There are several suppliers of BR who do have the necessary CITIES article 10 forms - you just need to to search them out.... Combinations that are best? I would say different is probably closer, the Ebonies (Macassar/Maalsian Blackwood etc) with German spruce, Cocobolo with German, All add their own flavour - quality ofthe wood itself probably more imporatnt as is the skill in putting it together! 
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| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Frank Cousins wrote: ...quality ofthe wood itself probably more imporatnt as is the skill in putting it together! I for myself believe that the nature of the woods, specially for back and sides, is a really small variable in establishing the quality of a guitar. As you mentioned, the quality of how the guitar was build, and the overall specs of the guitar (shape, box depth, flexibiity of the top, scalelenght, string gauge, etc.) are what will drive the tone of a guitar more than the nature of the woods. But that's just my opinion/belief. |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Personally, I haven't actually found a "Best" or a "Worst" yet... Different -- Yes, certainly so... but Best? Not yet. I don't think I have found a wood that I don't like yet.... Even "Plywood" has its own virtues (Very durable....) But... How do you define "Best?" Best for what? Do you want "Best" as in easiest to build with hand tools.... Best as in looks very interesting/sexy Best as in stable and less likely to crack and split Best as in the Luthier has confidence in the materials? Best as in very expensive and hard to get? Then "Best" for what instrument Do you want a Steel string dreadnought for playing Bluegrass? Do you want a Steel string Parlor guitar for playing fingerstyle? Do you want a modern Concert classical? Do you want a reproduction of an "Antique" classical? Do you want a Flamenco? Do you want a Resonator guitar Do you want a Lap steel or Weiss? My own experience so far.... The quality of construction and care in design can easily overcome whatever choice in wood is made.... You can easily see this by playing all of the "Rosewood and Spruce" guitars in a guitar store -- some sound tinny and cold, some sound dead and thumpy, some sound warm and wonderful.... Yet all are made with rosewood and spruce. A Brazilian rosewood and European spruce Coffee table strung with guitar strings will still sound like a coffee table. Thanks John |
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| Author: | fransoos [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Oh John, what I want to express here is the combination of top and backwood in general. To me a topwood like koa on a mapleback could be a mismatch; both have a high midrange in tone as far as I know. I want to know are there more common combinations which works/sounds best or worse. frans |
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| Author: | Corky Long [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Frans - I think John has expressed it very well. It depends on what you are trying to achieve. In addition, as many experienced luthiers on this forum have stated previously, other factors in design and execution are more relevant to the final sound than the choice of woods. I think you might get some interesting responses to the question if you were clear about the type of sound you were trying to acheive. "best" sound is entirely subjective. If you describe what you're looking for - e.g. long (or not) sustain, balance (or strong bass), etc. Some idea of what you are intending to use the specific guitar for is necessary. |
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| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
I don't know about John (although I believe he undertstood your concern), but for myself, I could very well build you a bassy guitar with a koa top on maple back and sides. It is wrong to believe that the woods chosen will 'drive' the sound and tone of a guitar. Again, others may think differently. But it seems that for most builders, the more guitars they make and the more they are inclinded in thinking that way too. |
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| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Corky, Not only great minds think alike, but they also type at the same time! 
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Guitars have been around for 400+ years... so it is a reasonably mature product. I think you need look no further than the "Traditional" material choices for combinations that guitar builders just keep coming back to.... Look at what is sold in Guitar stores..... There seem to be certain woods that have been used for a *long* time -- and have a well established track record: These are the most "Common" and traditional. Maple/Spruce Rosewood/Spruce Cypress/Spruce Mahogany/Spruce These are also fairly common Mahogany/Mahogany Koa/Spruce Koa/Koa Rosewood/Cedar Mahogany/Cedar |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Alain Moisan wrote: I don't know about John (although I believe he undertstood your concern), but for myself, I could very well build you a bassy guitar with a koa top on maple back and sides. It is wrong to believe that the woods chosen will 'drive' the sound and tone of a guitar. Again, others may think differently. But it seems that for most builders, the more guitars they make and the more they are inclined in thinking that way too. I think if the question was worded "I want a BRW + Alpine Spruce guitar, but can't buy BRW -- What are good BRW substitutes" -- The question would be much easier to answer..... I think we would say "Osage orange, Padauk, and several of the reasonably dense Rosewoods make a pretty good substitute...." but... The question was "What makes the best guitar" -- and that is a pretty open ended question.... Then, he followed up with "What are Common combinations" -- which one could easily determine by making 1 trip to a Guitar shop...... Except you may come away with the impression that "Plywood top + Plywood back and sides" was the best combination because of the sheer number of examples ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Thanks John |
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| Author: | fransoos [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Oh Boys, you are right in every word; using "best" is a wrong choice. I live in the Netherlands; my English isn't that good. ![[uncle]](./images/smilies/surrenderflagqv6.gif "Uncle") When we use "best" we think "good" or "likely" eg. Sorry. I find truckjohn's info helpfull; I am starting to build an acoustic first time after building electric. I like the sound of my taylor 314ce L7, but then I want to build a "OM"size body and try to get a martin sound. Brw is not an option for a starting builder although available in EU. thanx for your info. |
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| Author: | Hupaand [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Hoe gaat het met jou, I built an EIR sitka spruce OM once and showed it to a good player who owned several handmade guitars. He said,'This is nice if you like the Martin style sound.' His 2 cents worth. beste wensen, Hugh |
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| Author: | enalnitram [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Ok, I'll shrug that best thing aside, and go on to say that it seems like quite a few walnut and cedar guitars have made me go "whoa!" |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
fransoos wrote: There seem's to be a growing interest in "looks" rather then sound. what are your -building- experiences. I don't find that to be the case. In fact, I am seeing a trend away (at least with my own building) from the ultra blingy wood. Best? How about "favorite?" My favorite combos are: Brazilian / Euro #1 (Lutz #2) Mahogany / Euro #1 (Lutz #2) and a close second on the rosewoods are Amazon Madagascar For grassers and agressive players I lean toward Adi tops For warmth and articulation I like LS redwood |
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| Author: | blahblahwoofwoof [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
I was just talking about a build for an 8 String Tenor guitar as part of a trade. When asked what woods, I laughed and said kinda hard to go wrong with IR / Sitka. The luthier laughed and agreed. I could have had anything I wanted wood wise, but for a guitar I'll play for maybe 5% of the time I saw no reason to go over the top. I've got guitars out of lots of woods. But my favorite all around guitar is an OM out of IR and Sitka. Great wood, and replaceable if something really bad happens. |
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| Author: | fransoos [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Hi, Maybe you have a point and is the choice of top and backwood not that important. The type of bracing does have a greater impact on tone and volume? frans |
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| Author: | Corky Long [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
fransoos wrote: Hi, Maybe you have a point and is the choice of top and backwood not that important. The type of bracing does have a greater impact on tone and volume? frans I think the choice of top is very important - as is the orientation, style, thickness, scalloping of bracing. Choice of back and side wood can certainly "color" the tone, but less than the top. What are you trying to acheive? |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Corky Long wrote: Choice of back and side wood can certainly "color" the tone, but less than the top. I could disagree with that.
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| Author: | fransoos [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Corky Long wrote: I think the choice of top is very important - as is the orientation, style, thickness, scalloping of bracing. Choice of back and side wood can certainly "color" the tone, but less than the top. What are you trying to acheive? What I am trying to achieve is some insight in the relation between : - choice of top-wood and back-wood, - choice of bracing type and carf to get a 000 size guitar loud with good bass and tremble response for fingerpickingstyle. I have some koa backs and sides, Adirondack top's, engelmann tops and western red cedar top. I have to make a choice. ( I am a newby in acoustic building and have no experience other then solidbody-building ) |
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| Author: | Mark Ewing [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
I have built three guitars so I have no right to make diffinative statements. The dread is a blk walnut b/s with cedar top. Two OM one with blk walnut bs and doug fir top. The other mahogany bs and Sitka top. Each guitar has has a different sound. The two OMs sound really different. The only explainatiin is the wood althought I did get better at building by redoing some of my jigs. This resulted in a better built guitar and to some extent better playing guitars. I believe the combo of wood types as well as the diamentions of the top and bracing effect tone. I intend to use readily available wood that I can afford. I have three going now. Two blk walnut bs. One with cedar one with Sitka. The other is mahogany bs with Doug fir top. All OM. To me it is the build process and it is really neat to experience the different in sound when they are finished. I also belive the type of finish effect tone. |
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| Author: | fransoos [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
thanx mark; your info is much appreciated any suggestions on the Koa + top for an 000-style build ? |
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| Author: | Ti-Roux [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
fransoos wrote: thanx mark; your info is much appreciated any suggestions on the Koa + top for an 000-style build ? Why not Koa? I'm also considering to build with koa nearly, for a classical, and I have a nice redwood top. Anybody seen or try this combination? |
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| Author: | Frank Cousins [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Ti-Roux wrote: fransoos wrote: thanx mark; your info is much appreciated any suggestions on the Koa + top for an 000-style build ? Why not Koa? I'm also considering to build with koa nearly, for a classical, and I have a nice redwood top. Anybody seen or try this combination? Definitely worth a go... agood friend of mine just took delivery of an all Koa (stunning AAAAA wood - Frankfurt show edition) Collings Dread... simply amazing - scarily good tone that leaves you thinking ...how on earth? , and that from small factory maker. |
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| Author: | LuthierSupplier [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
Ti-Roux wrote: fransoos wrote: thanx mark; your info is much appreciated any suggestions on the Koa + top for an 000-style build ? Why not Koa? I'm also considering to build with koa nearly, for a classical, and I have a nice redwood top. Anybody seen or try this combination? Yes, this combo works very well. I just strung up this steel string redwood/koa, and it is a great sounding guitar. Looks good too! Attachment: front.jpg Attachment: backguitar.jpg
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| Author: | fransoos [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best combination ? top + b&s |
[/quote]Yes, this combo works very well. I just strung up this steel string redwood/koa, and it is a great sounding guitar. Looks good too! Attachment: front.jpg Attachment: backguitar.jpg [/quote]Wow, that's the combination I'm after. Beautifull and if the sounds are as the looks 
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