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Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27073		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
So I bought the jig from Stew-Mac for drilling the holes for the tuning machines for a classical guitar:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for:_Tuner_installation/Tuning_Machine_Drill_Jig_for_Slotted_Pegheads.html

I used it for the first time Sunday and routed the string slots last night. It all worked well but I knew a moment of truth would come when I test fit the tuning machines to see how well they lined up with each other from side to side. I actually did pretty good but if I look very critically, I can see that the right side tuners are perhaps a tad higher than the left side tuners. I was careful and I think within the limits of what I am able to do with a ruler and square to register one side with the other prior to drilling the second set of holes. Certainly my results could have been worse, and that's what bothers me.

Does anyone have any tips (other than buying the fine jig from the Luthier Tool Company) on how to get good side to side alignment when drilling the holes for classical tuners?

Thanks,
Pat
Author:  douglas ingram [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
I don't use that jig, or any jig for that matter, for drilling the tuner holes. I lay everything out accurately and use a brad tip drill bit in a drill press, for the hole. I do this before cutting the slots, not after, as in the photo of the jig.

The issue that I would anticipate with that jig is that I do not see anything to allow for accurate registration. Is this the case?
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Douglas,
Yes, this is the case.
Pat
Author:  Peter J [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
What Doug said. Layout, layout, layout..... and then recheck.

Always, always drill the roller holes prior to slotting. (DAMHIKT) After layout and recheck I usually use a small manual crank drill with a 1/16" bit to make a small pilot hole prior to using the proper brad tip bit in the drill press. It helps to get it aligned as you are locating on the drill press.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
I use a block drill guide, from www.specialtytuners.com. It is basically a 35mm spaced set of holes in a steel block. I shimmed it with wood on each side, and just clamp everything down on a table and drill with a hand drill. Too hard to get the angles right on a drill press.
Image
Author:  Elman Concepcion [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Hi Pat

My First Post - Long Time Lurker

That StewMac-Jig is Great but it needs a little mod.
Here is my little contribution to this fine Luthiery community.

This mod basically adds the missing index point at the tip of the head.
Directions

1-adjust your index for the desire location of your tuning machine holes.
2-index jig, clamp and drill.
3-Flip neck, index jig, clamp and drill.
You're Done
Once you set your desire distance you won't need to set it again unless you change your design.

Hope that Helps
Elman

Here are some pics.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Elman,

First, welcome to the forum.

Second..... bliss !

Great idea. I was trying to index off the jig by scribbing lines off it on to the top of the head but the lines didn't line up right when I moved the jig to the other side because the jig turns over and rotates in the opposite direction. The idea of gluing it to an indexer and flipping it when going to the other side did not occur to me. Thanks very much for sharing your solution.

Pat
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
I do it just like Waddy!
Lay out is the only way to get them perfect from side to side.
BUT I've repaired many high end makers guitars over the last 30 + years and many of their tuners were no perfectly aligned.
But the player/owner never noticed or cared.

Only us guitarmakers sweat the details that no one else sees.
Mike
Author:  Elman Concepcion [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
[quote="Mike Collins"]
"Lay out is the only way to get them perfect from side to side."

Hmmm???

I don't think that's quite true.
More than one way to skin a cat.

I used to do my Lay out lines but since My little modified jig above always agreed with Them, I stopped.
The indexing guarantees that the holes will be absolutely, perfectly symmetrical on both sides.
And, the StewMac jig is self-centering so no matter what the thickness of your head, the holes will always be in the middle.

Elman
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
I use the Gilbert Jig like Waddy, and clamp everything to the bench, works perfectly
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
To me, layout is a method of last resort. It's terribly time consuming and never as accurate as a good jig.

Pat
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Elman-
Neat idea- thanks!
How do you adjust your 'indexing plate' to the shape of the headstock end?
Do you index off the 'corner' or the center, or a combination of the two?

The headstock in your pics seems to have quite a simple end profile- does this also work on some of the more ornate 'Spanish-style' classical headstocks?

Cheers
John
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
I do not use the same jig as stated !
I should not have posted !
This is acustom guitamaking shop -not a spec. one.
I use many different tuners & h.s. thicknesses.
Width and shapes.

sorry
mike idunno
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
John,

I'll let Elman correct me if I'm wrong but I assume he does the tuner holes before shaping the end of the head. From his pictures it looks to me like he has a small stopper stick at the end of the indexer plate that is held by two screws such that it can be adjusted to match the angle between the side of the head and the top of the head.

Pat
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Pat Hawley wrote:
John,

I'll let Elman correct me if I'm wrong but I assume he does the tuner holes before shaping the end of the head. From his pictures it looks to me like he has a small stopper stick at the end of the indexer plate that is held by two screws such that it can be adjusted to match the angle between the side of the head and the top of the head.

Pat


Thanks, Pat.
That makes sense.
As long as the end of the head is squared off to the neck, that would work well.

Cheers
John
Author:  Elman Concepcion [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Wow - some misunderstandings going on here. !!!

I will be very busy for the next couple of days - I will try then, to read all the replies an explain how my jig works.
- Please have a little patience. I have a ton of stuff to do!!!

Elman
Author:  Elman Concepcion [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Hi John

How do you adjust your 'indexing plate' to the shape of the headstock end?
You just bud it against the Peak of the Crest of your head.

Do you index off the 'corner' or the center, or a combination of the two?
It does not matter where the index or stop block touches the high peak of the head/crest.

The headstock in your pics seems to have quite a simple end profile -
Actually, my pic was just of a neck blank with a scarf joint. neck blank (square end ) that was all I had in hand to show off the jig. I just sent out an instrument, so I did not have a finished head to show.

- does this also work on some of the more ornate 'Spanish-style' classical headstocks?
Yes - it will work with almost any head shape.
What is important if you want the tuning machines to line up is that the crest of the head, irrelevant of the design, is Symmetrical.

If you crest looks like Gumby's Head. You can still use the jig to do the holes but, the holes will be offset by the asymmetry of the head.
Attachment:
gumby_and_poky_art-1.jpg


Pat Hawley wrote:
John,

I'll let Elman correct me if I'm wrong but I assume he does the tuner holes before shaping the end of the head.
Nope. I do the crest First. then the Side cheeks angle and then drill the tuning holes.

From his pictures it looks to me like he has a small stopper stick at the end of the indexer plate that is held by two screws such that it can be adjusted to match the angle between the side of the head and the top of the head.

The "small stopper stick" just buds against the highest point of your symmetrical head/crest.
All it does is to define the distance between the highest point of your symmetrical head/crest and where you want your tuning machine holes to be.

-------
Ok Guys - Don't laugh - I just found the first head I ever made - It was so bad I cut it off - Which is Why I still Have it. I used it to do a little video. It should clear things up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ttOmTDHfo

Just to redeem myself - this is what my heads look like now.
Elman
Attachment:
IMGA0087_2.jpg
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Elman,

Thanks very much for the explanations and video. All is clear to me now.

The video was like watching a close-up magician. I kept waiting for you to say "nothing up my sleeves".

I will also add that I think Stew-Mac should take a look at this mod. It turns their good jig into an excellent jig and now I'm very happy I bought it.

Pat
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Thanks, Elman.

Just a question on the jig detail-the aluminum plate is flush with the plexiglas surface, and it is glued around the edges to the plexi?
(In order to keep the self-centering feature working properly...)

Nice job on the string ramps, as well! Do you do those by hand, or with a router jig?

Thanks
John
Author:  Elman Concepcion [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
John

Just a question on the jig detail-the aluminum plate is flush with the plexiglas surface,
Yes
and it is glued around the edges to the plexi?
(In order to keep the self-centering feature working properly...)
Yes, I just morticed the aluminum into the plexi with epoxy while clamping the whole thing to a flat scrap of plexi (with wax on it) "to ensure the plexi and aluminum were absolutely flush,

Nice job on the string ramps, as well! Do you do those by hand, or with a router jig?
Thanks. I do the Head Slots with a template and router.

I do the Ramps By hand. The edges of the ramp I keep square with the aid of this little jig.
It stays in place with the wedges.
The Jig provides the line emanating from the string slots which I scribe and deepen.
After that.
The Jig protrudes 3/4 inch above the face of the head. Allowing you to place a chisel against it ensuring that the walls of the ramp remain Square.

Elman
P.S. I like Plexi but it is sure hard to photograph.

Attachment:
Photo on 2010-04-22 at 09.49.jpg
Attachment:
Photo on 2010-04-22 at 09.55.jpg
Attachment:
Photo on 2010-04-22 at 09.56.jpg
Author:  Elman Concepcion [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
Pat Hawley wrote:

Elman,
"I will also add that I think Stew-Mac should take a look at this mod. It turns their good jig into an excellent jig and now I'm very happy I bought it."
Pat


Hey Pat
I'm Glad you are happy BUT.

"Stew-Mac should take a look at this mod"
hmmm. I'm giving the idea free to the luthiery community.
So, I don't know how I would feel about Stew-Mac making a buck from My idea.
Unless of course they give me some incentives :-)

What do you guys think?

Is it ok for Anyone to mine ideas from Luthiery forums and turn around and make a profit without compensating the originator of those ideas.
I'm just contemplating this as It did not occur to me that by giving out an idea for free someone else could use it to make profit?

If, this is the case then, I think this would inhibit Sharing of ideas. At least when it comes to Ideas for Jigs.

Elman
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Classical Tuning Machine Side to Side Alignment
E.C. wrote:
What do you guys think?

Is it ok for Anyone to mine ideas from Luthiery forums and turn around and make a profit without compensating the originator of those ideas.
I'm just contemplating this as It did not occur to me that by giving out an idea for free someone else could use it to make profit?

If, this is the case then, I think this would inhibit Sharing of ideas. At least when it comes to Ideas for Jigs.

Elman


I'm with you on this, Elman. It is absolutely not ethical to pick up (someone else's) ideas and produce them for your own profit. Not that ethics gets in the way of moneymaking all that often, though.....

Even worse is the practice of taking a long established technique or device and patenting it.

And, can we mention those traditional folk songs that Bob Dylan wrote?

It's an uphill battle.

Cheers
John
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