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African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27034		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  acoustic12 [ Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
Hi,
how do you guys see the difference between the three woods? Just curious...
I appreciate the quick response of ebony but really hate the dry, edgy/plucky tone. Looking for more sweetness, something warmer/buttery.
(body wood: spruce/madagascar RW)

Any comments?
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
acoustic12 wrote:
Hi,
how do you guys see the difference between the three woods? Just curious...
I appreciate the quick response of ebony but really hate the dry, edgy/plucky tone. Looking for more sweetness, something warmer/buttery.
(body wood: spruce/madagascar RW)

Any comments?


I find that the position markers have a greater effect on the overall tonal response of the instrument. Abalone gives a richer, more colorful tonal palette compared with the translucent shimmering quality of the trebles with Mother-of-Pearl.
Cheers
John
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
laughing6-hehe

John John John....ain't it spring yet up there?....Your spirits should be flying with the birds right now!...

Walter - the short of what John is getting at is that you should be chasing your sound somewhere OTHER THAN the fingerboard. If I'm reading your post correctly you seem to be asking if an African Blackwood fingerboard (which is a rosewood - not sure if you know that or not) is going to produce....etc..etc...etc...

Yeah I know the voodoo....but you should be looking a little closer at things that are more tangible....like the bridge. Change that...and you will certainly change the sound.

Chris
Author:  acoustic12 [ Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
Yes, I was thinking both bridge and fretboard. Sorry.

I hear this nasal, edgy, plucky sound and I think it's coming from the bridge/fretboard.

John, do you own an acoustic guitar?
Eat Drink
Author:  Kim [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
Sheesh, you guys, he just ask a question tis all.

Acoustic12 (Name here would be good) EDIT: Hello Walter 8-)

As has been mentioned, probably the last place to look as to why your guitar sounds nasaly would be the fretboard. Tell us more about the guitar, madrose and spruce does not say very much. Who built the guitar? How long has it been strung up? How is it braced? What body shape?......If the guitar is over braced this could be responsible for a nasaly sound, if the top too thick, same deal but it can be many things or a combination. Subjective stuff but in my books a nasaly sound tiny highs and mids, short on bass generally points to some sort of restriction of the soundboard going on, the FB is probably least likely to be the cause IMHO.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
I agree that you definitely need to look at the soundboard first. If it is nasal it is probably too stiff.

But if we are to talk ABW, I got two fingerboards a while ago, and besides looking and feeling terrific it pings just bout the same as ebony. It maybe has a hair more sustain and more open, but definitely no Brazilian style zing or glassiness. I think I even had an older thread here asking others about the experience with ABW. Besides these FB, I bought and used a wide panel in a 3-piece back, and it had the same dull sound. The guitar sounds fine however. Perhaps I am unlucky so far. Lots of other people are saying it rings like heaven. I have had Brazilian, Madagascar (various varieties) and even Indian ringing like heaven, but Blackwood not yet.
Author:  Pete Brown [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
Kim wrote:
Who built the guitar?

Steady there Kim. beehive
Author:  Kim [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
:lol: :lol: :lol: [uncle] [:Y:]

Thanks for reminding me Pete
Author:  george wilson [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
I would caution you who think the fingerboard does not affect tone.
Author:  Kim [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
george wilson wrote:
I would caution you who think the fingerboard does not affect tone.


Not that I disagree entirely George, but if you are to make such a statement it wold be nice to follow up with your reasoning. I only say so because 'in relation to the top', I recon the FB has little impact. In fact one school of thought suggest that responsive tonewoods such as BRW and AB can rob tone from the instrument as they absorb energy, where as woods such as ebony being 'less' responsive is better suited to this component as it allows more of the string energy to travel from the neck into the top where it belongs.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  george wilson [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
I just urge caution as there was a big discussion about tonality of different wood on fingerboards some time ago. Trouble is,I can't recall where,now,but I recall the discussion. I don't think it is unreasonable that what happens at BOTH ends of the string can affect tone. The size of the peghead certainly does. I make mine heavy.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
Walter-
My apologies for the flippant response to your question.

I know that there is a great deal of opinion (and some mumbo-jumbo) in electric guitar circles about the tone imparted by different fingerboard woods.

On the other hand, I recall reading some evidence that even expert listeners cannot reliably tell the difference between guitars with major differences (top wood, bracing schemes, etc) in a blind listening test.

I have an interest in 'audiophile' audio equipment and this sort of question comes up all the time, with people claiming sound differences from some quite minor modifications. (Raising the speaker cables off the carpet with little tripods, for example...it's another world over there...!)

No doubt the fingerboard wood does make some difference- everything in (and on) the guitar probably does. As others have pointed out, it's the significance of the fingerboard compared to the other guitar elements that is in question.

One thing that's seldom discussed here at OLF is string selection. (Classical guitar players seem to experiment with this quite a bit more than the SS crowd.). Trying some different string styles might be an easy way to get the tonal change you are looking for- it's relatively cheap, and completely reversible, so your guitar will not be modified/changed/devalued in any way. (Just make sure you don't use too-heavy strings and damage the guitar!) Don't be afraid to 'step outside the box' a bit- you may find that a coated/flatwound/electric/whatever string gives you the tone you are looking for- this is all about the music, right?
I've had good luck dealing with http://www.stringsbymail.com/ - they have a great selection (& service) and can also give you good advice if you drop them an email.
BTW, you might consider ordering a string winder that fits your cordless drill if you are going to be doing a lot of string changes!
http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_410&products_id=5197

Cheers
John
Author:  woody b [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
acoustic12 wrote:
Hi,
how do you guys see the difference between the three woods? Just curious...
I appreciate the quick response of ebony but really hate the dry, edgy/plucky tone. Looking for more sweetness, something warmer/buttery.
(body wood: spruce/madagascar RW)

Any comments?


I like Ebony FB's but hate Ebony bridges. Normally when I use an Ebony FB I use a BRW bridge, dyed black.

Why not Madagascar RW for the FB and bridge?


Kim said
Quote:
In fact one school of thought suggest that responsive tonewoods such as BRW and AB can rob tone from the instrument as they absorb energy, where as woods such as ebony being 'less' responsive is better suited to this component as it allows more of the string energy to travel from the neck into the top where it belongs.


......................... but it also depends on how the neck is attached beehive
Author:  John Platko [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
Pete Brown wrote:
Kim wrote:
Who built the guitar?

Steady there Kim. beehive


Perhaps a picture or two would help. ;)
Author:  george wilson [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
I only use Brazilian rosewood for bridges. I'd like to try using a good hard piece of pearwood stained black,especially on a classical,to reduce the weight of the bridge as an experiment. On banjos,at least,a lighter bridge makes a HUGE difference Of course,a banjo is more sensitive in that area than a guitar, I'm sure,lighter strings,thin head,etc.

3 foot bridges on banjos also kills tone. I've had people cut off that third foot when I was teaching instrument making at Penland Craft School,having done it myself. Then,I've had them sand the bridge down thinner. Each process improved tone.

I stopped off at a guy's house who had a Gibson Mastertone banjo that sounded horrible. I saw that someone had made a bridge out of what I think was rosewood for it. The bridge had 2 feet,and was no larger anywhere than the usual maple bridge. I could have taken it home,and made money out of mumbo jumbo over it. All I did was put the maple bridge back on in front of him,and all was well again. No charge.
Author:  Corky Long [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
I've got another thought for you - in addressing a "nasal" tone.

One of the troubles of these discussions is a lack of consistent terminology for describing tone. I won't beat that dead horse any more - please take this as an admission that my "nasal" tone might not be what you're hearing.

I've found that as I learn to do setup better (still not there yet) the fit of the nut and the saddle has a lot to with the quality of the tone coming from the guitar. If you're not 100% sure that the string is breaking over the nut and saddle as they should (nut - snug but not tight, and the break at the forward edge of the nut) take a close look - a bit of gentle filing with the right sized nut files will make a huge difference. Kent Everett has some very good stuff in his CD on setup. Robbie O'Brien has posted a very good summary of that info on this forum recently.

That's something you might be able to improve on hte last guitar, rather than waiting to build the next one! [:Y:]

My two cents.
Author:  acoustic12 [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
Thanks guys, I really appreciate the advice. How about I play this for you?

http://www.box.net/shared/3n1l6nkis9

Go to the above link, hit play button and tell me what you hear (especially notes played at 1:03, 4:04, 6:01- or C#-D-D-C#-C-B)


I know it's the builder, the bracing, the top, I know all that. (I've played some Martins with ebony b/f and none of them had that clunky plucky edgy thing; quite the opposite). But I'm considering another guitar from this builder and want to know if going with ABW or BRW bridge/fretboard will change anything.

pizza
thanks,
Walter
Author:  Kim [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
The bridge yes, but in my honest opinion the fretboard, no. At best it can be argued that the fretboard material effects the transfer of the strings energy into the top. It may also make a 'subtle' difference to the over all tone of a guitar, but that point remains quite debatable.

If you know it's the builder, the bracing, the top which is mainly responsible for tone, then why would you consider the very heavy influence these things 'do' have on tone, could be negated by a component with such questionable and light weight influence as the fretboard?

Cheers

Kim
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
acoustic12 wrote:
But I'm considering another guitar from this builder and want to know if going with ABW or BRW bridge/fretboard will change anything.


From your comments, it sounds like you have some major 'dislikes' about the sound you are getting from the present guitar.

My opinion? Changing the bridge wood will probably make a small difference, but don't expect anything dramatic. Fingerboard change- mostly cosmetic, though the 'feel' may change.

I still think you should look at your string selection before ordering a new guitar. Hard to tell from the recording, but it sounds a bit like a guitar with too-light strings to me. What strings were you using, what's the scale length, etc?

Cheers
John
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
ABW is about twice as dense as BRW, heavier than ebony but unlike ebony has very low damping.
Author:  acoustic12 [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
I might be wrong, but I think that ebony imparts a bright snappy top end. Just hoping to find a material that mutes this somewhat.

John,
guitar has a 25.5 scale and 13-56 phosphor bronze strings. It's the best guitar I could find.. I don't see myself switching to another brand.. I've played some 10k Martins and none of them did anything for me.

Thank you for your time guys, I really appreciate it.
Walter
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
Well not quite twice...Br is between 800 and 1000Kg/m3 and ebony/ABW between 1000 and 1200.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
acoustic12 wrote:
I might be wrong, but I think that ebony imparts a bright snappy top end. Just hoping to find a material that mutes this somewhat.

You got it in reverse. Ebony has a lot of internal damping. If it favours anything at all, it won't be the treble registers. A lighter, more resonant bridge material (BRW, EIR) will do that.
That's why you rarely, if ever, see an ebony bridge on nylon string guitars. Muting the hard to obtain high registers being the last things a classical builder will want to do.
Author:  acoustic12 [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
I always thought that it was easier to get a light object in motion than to move a heavy one. That's why ebony would resonate at higher frequencies (higher frequencies demand less energy) - bright snappy tone- vs rosewoods- less brittle, more sweetness?
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: African Blackwood as a fingerboard, vs Ebony or BRW
Again, ebony has a lot of internal damping. Ebony is also pretty heavy, either BRW or EIR are much lighter in weight. Other rosewoods like cocobolo and Honduran RW are about equal to ebony in weight (on average) but are much more resonant (less internal damping). African blackwood is heavier than all of those.
With my bridge design a Braz or EIR bridge will weigh 21g, Honduran RW and cocobolo about 30g, ebony from 26g to 32g.
Knock on an ebony fretboard blank, you'll get a somewhat dead thud, knock on an African blackwood blank and you'll get a wide range of frequencies and a long sustain.
In any case the choice of wood for the fretboard and bridge doesn't make or break the tone of a steel string guitar. I assume nylon string guitars are much more sensitive to bridge material, though.
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