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| Neck heel separation!! Fixable? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27016 |
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| Author: | aznricey [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Hello! Very excited to join this forum. This is my first post =) I'll introduce myself later.As I have an urgent situation here. I got this guitar(Takamine Jasmine S33) not too long ago.Been kept in a hard case for the whole time.But for whatever reason, the joint on the neck is developing a crack. I have read alot of materials but not sure if it applies to this case. Thank you in advance.   
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Welcome! I'm not a steel stringer, but the look of that, would, indicate a need to address it sooner rather than later. I think it would only get worse. Looks like the tenon or dovetail is pulling out of the neck block at the back. I could surely be wrong, though. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
The crack its self can be fixed. I am assuming that the rim to neck block joint had a glue void or starvation failure there. that has to be addressed to insure that the rim will not pull away from the neck block again. So tell me did the neck receive a hard blow to the palm side. This is not a failure seen often because this joint is an opposing grain joint it is not normally going to fail in this manner. the neck will have to come off to evaluate the problem and to repair. Waddy if you are right that would mean that the tail end of the mortise has pulled through. this wouls require a new neck block meaning the neck top or back would need to be removed to replace the neck block. I hope it is a bolt on and there was just a bad glue joint between the rim and the neck block and the heel is glued to the rim and took a blow that cased the rim to seperate from the neck block. much simpler repair. but if a dovetail you could be right on. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Like I said, I was just guessing. You are probably right, Michael, this is more your bailiwick than mine! |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
I love the binding on this one  Boy I did not read well enough. Jasmine it is dovetail. How long ago?? This seems to be a warrantee issue |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
The shop I used to work in a few years back sold these .. I still remember seeing the first one and having the store owner tell me that Takamine didnt even want to put their own name on it, hence the Jasmine by takamine label .... I doubt they would fix this - store cost on the guitar is less than half the repair price .... they would likely give you another one if its still under warranty. one of my buds works on contract for Yamaha Canada .. they sell the cheapo's to Costco .. when they get returned, Yamaha saves them up, and when they get enough, they have a gutiar stomping party at lunch before tossing them in the dumpster ... they just give them a new one. |
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| Author: | aznricey [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
I think you guys are right on. Apparantly even Takamine is getting worse(herd from people). As this is baugh used(new)... Im contacting the seller to find me a receipt (Im nice not to ask for a refund). I also contacted Jasmine to ask what the neck construction is. I wouldn`t know what the guitar has been done in the pass. But I haven`t done anything except for leave it in the case. This is definitely not worth the money to fix. But im willing to do anything myself. Any suggestions? How long do you think this thing will last. This is a side story. You guys can give it a read if you like story time: My friend wanted to start playing guitar, but wanted a good bargain. So i looked everyday on kijiji and found him a good acoustic electric for $160. But he didn`t take care of his guitar and warped the neck. THEN i looked again on kijiji again, now I found him THIS. Sigh.As for myself. I also own a campfire acoustic (Oscar Schmidt) that lasted me for ages even though I didn`t treat it so well. A day ago I baugh a Vester V577 electric acoustic that had a neck heel separation. I met with the seller at a luthier shop and I paid $300 for a neck reset! Now im waiting for it to come in. I hope everything goes well! |
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| Author: | aznricey [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Don't mean to double post. But the thread was sinking to the bottom and I had another burning question. Saw someone reset a neck on youtube. And they just drill a hole into the neck and fill it in after. I was thinking, what if I do the same on the cracked part. If you guys are correct and there are unglued spots i'd just fill it with with the hole i drilled with epoxy or other stuff to strengthen the connections. Seems a bit unorthodox but would it be worth a try? |
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| Author: | Jeffrey L. Suits [ Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
[quote="aznricey"]Hello! Very excited to join this forum. This is my first post =) I'll introduce myself later.As I have an urgent situation here. I got this guitar(Takamine Jasmine S33) not too long ago.Been kept in a hard case for the whole time.But for whatever reason, the joint on the neck is developing a crack. I have read alot of materials but not sure if it applies to this case. Thank you in advance. My bet is that it's a multi dowel joint, glued to the laminate sides, and that the top laminate is giving way, as the joint fails. |
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| Author: | aznricey [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
aznricey wrote: Don't mean to double post. But the thread was sinking to the bottom and I had another burning question. Saw someone reset a neck on youtube. And they just drill a hole into the neck and fill it in after. I was thinking, what if I do the same on the cracked part. If you guys are correct and there are unglued spots i'd just fill it with with the hole i drilled with epoxy or other stuff to strengthen the connections. Seems a bit unorthodox but would it be worth a try? So then would this work then? Even if it was a double dowel joint? |
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| Author: | sbmac [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Hi, these are not worth paying $ for repairing at this level, but I'm sensitive that the guitar may have meaning to you...There's nothing wrong with enjoying an inexpensive guitar! Unless the neck angle has moved enough to make it hard to play, it may not get worse! These are epoxied into the joint, and though it has cracked behind the heel, it may not travel any further, at least not for a while. They spray a heavy finish all arounf the heel, and that is prone to cracking. It doesn't mean the guitar can't be played. I'd keep 11s or 12s (not mediums) on it from now on. If the action has become higher, you may be able to lower your saddle a bit to help. I would simply play it and enjoy it until it no longer works for you (and it may last for years). |
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| Author: | aznricey [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Well I got this guitar for my friend who wants to start out... He was going to pay me back for this... But now I think I need to talk him into using MY OWN campfire acoustic (1st guitar i own, has sentimental value. But wouldn't mind it breaking. Just want it alive lol) and then i will keep that guitar until it breaks. My concern is, if there're anything I can do before the crack develops. You are right, I have this feeling the crack won't develop too! But If anybody has any advice that I can fix this by myself I would appreciate it. If you guys think I should maybe actually do something WHEN it really does crack open. My heart will be in peace for now =) I was thinking of drilling a screw or two at the neck joint to stabilize any movements/separation. Really want to know if that's recommended. I wouldn't do that now, but I would consider doing that later if the joint does crack open. THANKS FOR EVERYBODY'S HELP =) |
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| Author: | aznricey [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
As I was saying above. Here's an example of where I want to implement a screw in to secure the neck. Finally found a picture! See black circle(Where I would put screw in) 
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| Author: | aznricey [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Sorry to bring this up again. But I was wondering if I should tighten the truss rod? But what if this crack is caused FROM an overtightened truss rod? The way it cracks SEEMS like it's caused by the force of the strings, is that correct? |
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| Author: | Corky Long [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
From reading your posts and the responses, sounds like the following are true: 1) its a new guitar - and you're in process of dealing with the vendor for a refund or replacement. Good idea. 2) If that fails and you still want to fix it, I've got a few questions: What's happening with the action? Is it shifting at all? Is it playable? I'm trying to understand if it's moving, or is the crack simply cosmetic at this point? I see a crack - I don't see separation. If it's not moving, here's a suggestion for the repair guys to evaluate. Why not apply CA glue (the thin stuff) to the crack, let it pentrate and halt any spreading of the crack? It's likely to make a bit of a mess, unless he's really careful - but it will be playable. I'd never suggest this for a guitar where you might want to do a neck reset at a later date, but it doesn't sound like the case for this one. Does that make sense? |
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| Author: | aznricey [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Thanks for answer my post >< Quote: What's happening with the action? Is it shifting at all? Is it playable? I'm trying to understand if it's moving, or is the crack simply cosmetic at this point? I see a crack - I don't see separation. If it's not moving, here's a suggestion for the repair guys to evaluate. Why not apply CA glue (the thin stuff) to the crack, let it pentrate and halt any spreading of the crack? It's likely to make a bit of a mess, unless he's really careful - but it will be playable. I'd never suggest this for a guitar where you might want to do a neck reset at a later date, but it doesn't sound like the case for this one. Does that make sense? 1) Nothing is happening to the action. But I suspect that the truss rod might be abnormally tight, hence causing the crack. Whether it does or not, I'd like to know if I should loosen it to ease off the pressure. (Though I again doubted myself from seeing the direction it cracks. ) 2)I've only had it for 3 weeks so far, doesn't look like anything is shifting yet. And if I press the crack hard enough I can tell it penetrates from the inside to the outside of body where the neck heel attaches 3)If I was to apply CA glue. I was planning to do so after the crack develops. Since the crack is not big enough to have anything to seep through. 4) I doubt i'll do a neck reset. Since that'll cost more than the guitar itself THANKS AGAIN |
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| Author: | Ken Franklin [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
The truss rod should have nothing to do with the crack you have. If you can see the crack then thin CA glue will surely penetrate it. As long as the crack is in the fibers the CA should hold well. If the crack is along a glue line it probably won't. Gluing it sooner than later is the best bet for a cheap possible fix in this situation. |
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| Author: | aznricey [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
OK! Sounds like a plan to me. If no one has objection to this im going to do this in a few days. By the way, i was thinking I can use animal hide glue since it's reversible if you heat it up. But where can you find those things?? |
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| Author: | Corky Long [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Hide glue doesnt make sense for a hairline crack such as that one - you won't get it to penetrate deeply enough. I'd use thin CA - with a pipette, and simply touch it to the crack. It'll wick into the crack and bond it. The other issue about the glue being reversible.... well, I'd be concerned about that with an an antique or vintage instrument, but your point about the neck reset being more expensive than the guitar holds here as well. If you're going to keep it, CA is fine, and will stabilize that crack for a long time. (Just don't spill it on the finish of the guitar - or on your fingers, etc. Eye protection also a good idea when using CA). Enjoy. |
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| Author: | aznricey [ Sun May 02, 2010 10:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
Alright sounds good! That will be the plan. Anybody disagrees, feel free to contribute =) Thanks for all your help! |
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| Author: | lactose [ Fri May 07, 2010 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck heel separation!! Fixable? |
If you want to learn guitar repair, it is better to start with cheap ones rather than expensive ones. So there is an upside to a cheap, defective guitar. |
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