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Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
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Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
I'm wondering about this. Would you lose the iridescent quality? Would you gain something?

I ask because my logo is really thin. I was thinking of crushing MOP or Abalone and pouring that into my logo channel and then glueing it in.

There's another question!...Which glue? I hope you folks have some experience input on this cuz I can see myself spending money on this to find out then answer.

Thanks,
Chris
Author:  P@uL [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
i would think that no matter what you used. pink, gold, black or white MOP crushed up will just look white. most of those shells color is not distributed through the whole blank very evenly. if they were crushed into chunks you would probably have more reflective surfaces. at least at least have different angles of reflections.
Author:  clavin [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
It's going to look like very little, and after adding glue it may disappear entirely.
shell dusts are not reflective at all in my experience. If it turns into anything, it likely will be just irregular gray lines.


Use either silver dust (obtained when actually cutting sheet silver) or use metals for the inlay. They can be cut extremely thin, just be careful about bending them.

Craig Lavin
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Craig thanks for weighing in on this. You just saved me some money.

Chris
Author:  Dan Pennington [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Chris/Sniggly
Since none of the people who responded have actually tried what you are asking about, you should do some tests on your own and see what happens. You might find a way to do it that you like the results of.

A couple of years ago, I asked a similar question on one of the Banjo Hangout forums - about using crushed semi-precious stone in inlays. I got the same kind of responses - I did some tests using crushed opal and turquoise and epoxy glue set into a hunk of oak. The top one is done using a ring of aluminum sliced off an old aluminum tent pole.

Image

I liked the results enough to use the technique on a couple of banjo necks. Sorry, no photos of the neck inlays.

So, try a few tests of your own and publish the results and then you'll be the resident expert on crushed pearl inlays.
Dan
Author:  Eric Reid [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
I worked on a 19th century parlor guitar that had lots of inlay that looked like crushed abalone in a clear binder. I don't know what it really was, or how they did it. Luckily, it was all intact. so I didn't have to duplicate it.
Author:  Rick Davis [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Craig's right -- crushed shell doesn't look like much at all. Crushed stone and metal chips are different. And yes, I'm speaking from experience having tried several ways of making and using the crushed shell. Chuck Erickson (aka Duke of Pearl) makes an abalam sheet called "Sparkle" that uses a flaked MOP. He must have a way of keeping the flakes flat. Anyway, for us, it's jeweler's saws or CNC machines or use a different material.
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Thanks guys...I've got some ideas I'm going to try.

Chris
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
The only way crushed shell would work is if the pieces were large and at the right angle. If you polish shell from the side it will polish up like bone polishes up but won't have the reflective quality of the top. I know this from using MOP nuts a few times. There is also an off and on quality to shell. Lay a piece on the table and rotate it and notice how it will reflect the light to be on and then keep rotating it and it will turn off. I pay attention to that on /off even when I inlay FB dots and side dots. Also when doing top purfs in abalam. I like to alternate the strips that I cut so that they are in order of their cutting.(At least as much as possible) Then I alternate them when I place them sort of like head to toe so that the colors at the butt joints are usually simular and they will alternate the on and off effect a bit more evenly. Although that's not what you ask but I think it's something to be aware of when working with shell.
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Good points Chris.

Here's an image of my logo on a headstock blank. I am trying to get away from using wood inlay and move toward something 'flashier'.

Image
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
How good are your cutting skills? Did you cut that and inlay it?
If so you shouldn't have a problem with solid shell.
You can also glue on some wood backing with tight bond that would give you some extra support against breaking and just drop the pieces in a bowel of warm water to remove the backing.
If you didn't do that then you could also give Andy DePaule a call and see what he can do it for too. Maybe buy a few if you intend to stick with it. Then build yourself a MacKenzie duplicator to cut the inlay channel. What are you doing just sitting there? Get busy! :P
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Chris Paulick wrote:
How good are your cutting skills? Did you cut that and inlay it?
If so you shouldn't have a problem with solid shell.
You can also glue on some wood backing with tight bond that would give you some extra support against breaking and just drop the pieces in a bowel of warm water to remove the backing.
If you didn't do that then you could also give Andy DePaule a call and see what he can do it for too. Maybe buy a few if you intend to stick with it. Then build yourself a MacKenzie duplicator to cut the inlay channel. What are you doing just sitting there? Get busy! :P



laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe

Chris I would love nothing more than to say...yeah I did that! But I didn't. I have that done for me on a laser machine. I'm told laser and shell don't mix. I'd like something flashier...hence the question for the crushed shell. You can see it's REALLY narrow stuff. So it's a work in progress. I might try my hand at it some day but I'm so busy trying to get my sound boxes right I don't want this project to detract from that.

Thanks for the encouragement dude....and don't think I don't notice you cuttin shell and doin' all that stuff!
[uncle]
Author:  Darryl Young [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Chris, did you see where Mario "melted" ivaroid binding and poured it in the "Proulx" inlay on the mandolin he built for the $100 Build Challenge on MIMF? I thought that was a neat trick for a nice inlay.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
No Bling there, he wants some Bling.
Author:  clavin [ Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
You can cut that out of pearl, but silver metal will hold up long term better, and never try to crack.
For routing use .15 end mills. You'll need the teeny bit to keep it clean. Helps to keep it in ebony as well, but with patience it can be done well in anything.

By the way, I HAVE done thin small inlays like this using the listed tools and materials... I'm not just "making up" what I feel might work for you.

duh duh pfft pfft pfft :shock: :x
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
You might also be able to use gold guilding and cover it finish as an option. I've never done it but have read about others using guilding.
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
That gives me lots of things to experiment with...when FATHER TIME GIVES ME A BREAK! The calls are just rolling in like clouds over Everest. Good problem I guess.

Anyway - Craig when you say silver metal do you mean actual silver or something else like aluminum.

I know where I can get a gilding kit. I'll check into that.
Author:  clavin [ Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Sheets of silver, brass, copper or gold. Any jewelry supply has it in varying thicknesses. I use 20 thousands sometimes, and other times 40 thou.
Cut it out like you would regular inlay. If you want gold I would inlay it out of gold, gilding it is going to be a pain it would seem. Gold of course is a pain in the wallet. I have never tried gilding so I have no idea what it involves either.
Craig L
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Craig,
Guilding/Leafing simply involves painting on a sizing/ glue and touching it to the guilding and smoothing it out with a brush. Although I haven't ever done it. I've seen it done on the tube. It's very thin but the finish should protect it.
Painting on the glue would be the hard part but I dont see why you couldn't scrape off any excess glue. Craft stores usually have kits with fake gold leaf that he could practice with.
http://www.kitkraft.biz/product.php?productid=3880
ReoGrande has the gold sheets. And maybe leafing too. I got gold bezel wire from them that I used for gold side purf on my wood reso. $300 side purfs on that guitar.
Heck if you want bling then go ahead and leaf the head and neck. How about a guilded guitar, There's some bling! :D
I wanted to have a gold plated Tricone. :)
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
I grabbed some silver sheet recently, though I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. The inlays I've seen done with it look quite nice, and for doing line-type work it couldn't be much easier than cutting a slot and pounding the wire in :)

As Craig said, it can still be done in real shell. Depending on the exact line width, you might need to thicken certain parts or use some abrasive and support to get the last smidge off if you're using a saw.

If it goes beyond the low end for that, there are ways to machine cut shell to almost zero width but it starts getting expensive when it hits the 'proprietary technique' range somewhere under 0.015-0.02" (depending on length and shape of thin section).
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
I cut this on my band saw with a 1/16" blade so if you back the shell with wood it would definatly help and you would be using a much finer blade. Just some food for thought. your pieces are probably thicker then .017" too.
You can also use the side of the jewlers saw blade as a file when you are cutting. That's a common use of the saw blade.
Point is it can be done by hand but you didn't really think it would be all that easy without having the sawing skills developed already, did ya? :)
Most things worthwhile aren't easy. :)
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Nice!
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Chris I never doubted it could be done...AND I think it's really freaky that you can get that stuff that thin. Hat's off my man....Hat's off.

My issue is time. I'll get around to it. I viewed the crushed shell idea as a quick fix but as you say...if it's worthwhile it probably isn't easy.

8-)
Author:  Eric Reid [ Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Chris, I think that's a very elegant logo. Investment cast gold? You don't have much volume there. I don't think the materials would cost that much. I wonder what a jeweler would charge to make a couple dozen? I would think he could use a mold cut with the same laser pattern to make the wax patterns.
Author:  the Padma [ Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crushed MOP or Abalone...Anyone done it or considered it?
Yo, Chris

go to an art store and check out a product called Pearl Ex Pigments by Jacquard Products.

It is coloured mica particles that are iridescent and as it is a powder, it can be mixed with any binder, epoxies, acrylics, glues....literally any clear binder.

Be sure to look at the Duo Blue-Green and the other Pearl Ex Duo colours. Open a jar, touch the powder with finger tip, look at it under the light. The Duo colours will irides just like shell.

The stuff works best if undercoated with its own colour or black.

I have used it before for really tight or narrow line work...is about as close to true shell you gonna get.

However, CNC work will cut shell that fine.

Blessings
the
Padma
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