Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Questions about binding with a Dremel
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26656		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Questions about binding with a Dremel
Hey all,
I have a Dremel, a base and edge guide from Luthier Tools in the UK (similar to the StewMac versions), and the Dremel router bit #155.
I noticed after routing the binding ledge on the back that there ended up being quite a bit of variation in the width. probably a total of .75mm from the most narrow to the widest. Is this due to the different angles along the edge of the guitar due to the arching back? I can't think of any other way that it could have happened. Is there anything I can do about it other than increase the width of the cut and go back over the more narrow areas?

Also, when I went to place the binding on to see how it fit, in many places along the bottom edge it doesn't sit down 100% flush with the ledge. I am wondering if this is due to the Dremel bit not cutting really flat along that ledge. If that's the case maybe I would be better off with the Dremel bit for binding that Stew Mac sells.. I really don't know though.

Comments? Suggestions? :)
Author:  coke_zero [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
I can't comment as someone who has done it a I am far from binding #1 but I have read a fair bit on it. If you have a radii on the top or back you will need a tilting base to correct for the angle of the arch.

Now, finding a laminate trimmer/router that cones with a tilting base here in the UK is near impossible.

I was going to use a Dremel but was advised not to and use something like a router which has more control & power.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
You are right about the back angles, and probably the bit also. Check if the cutter leaves a little radius in the corner of the groove, if so knock the edge off of the binding to get it to fit. I did the dremel thing on my 1st 2 guitars and it sucks to say the least. I made a base with 2 ball bearings about 1.5" apart and followed the side keeping the cutter vertical, I added a ring to the base that rode along the edge of the back so that the base could sit level in all locations. This did work but was such a low power setup that binding took forever and the cut was still not perfect. I broke down and bought a laminate trimmer and the StewMac true channel binding fixture and now actually enjoy binding.

Fred
Author:  Tom West [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Hear Fred's words.....!!!
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Fred's words are wise!

However I can't afford the nicer stuff. I suppose I just need to suck it up and do it with what I have. Hopefully I can fix any gaps. :)
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
I did my first two with the Dremel as well. It works, but barely. Lots of careful chisel and file work after the Dremel will get you closer.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Ya know, a good laminate trimmer costs about the same as a dremel. One of the concerns with the dremel is bearing runout. They are just not accurate enough. But every time I visit this topic I am reminded of the guy on youtube who builds guitars with a dremel (what was that? build a guitar in 90 minutes?)

The biggest issue of all is somehow maintaining the right angle with respect to the sides given a curved top/back. Surely, someone could adapt the Willimas Jig to a dremel. And you can build that jig real cheap if you just ask the right questions.

Mike
Author:  Mike Lindstrom [ Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
A carboard Emory board ($2.00 a pack of 10 at the grocery store) works great to even out and clean up those channels. not real fast, but bends and flexes to fit the curves.

Mike
Author:  the Padma [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Duh Dremel works ~ well sort of ... lots of clean up with files, or sand papers glued to curved blocks for cleaning the waist.

Oh well.

the
Padma
Author:  John Hale [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
I did 2 instrument with a dremel, I made a wooden tapered base that screwed to the dremel base to allow for the taper it was trued with a file I broke, blocks with sandpaper, I planed the corner off my binding before bending as well. and still if you look close you'll find the gaps.
Author:  Gary Palmer [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
I use a Bosch GKF600 - without any problems - for binding and inlay work. You'll need a 6.3mm-3.2mm collet reduction sleeve if using 3.2mm shanked down-spiral bits when routing for soundhole inlays, but it's 1/4" collet adjusts smoothly and accurately when setting depths and cutting angle can be adjusted via a simple adjustment to the base plate.

It also comes with a bearing equipped side guide which virtually eliminates the need for bearing guided cutters when routing for binding and purfling.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Bosc ... 781470.htm
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Five years ago when I started building I didn't have a nice binding jig yet so I took a tip from Dan Earlywine and our friends at Stew-Mac and made a donut for my laminate trimmer.

In this case a donut is anything that acts as an angled base with hole in the middle for the binding router bit to pass through. The angle of the wedge on your donut is a function of the radius that you use for your tops and in a perfect world a second donut for your back radi. Once you calculate what this angle is for your respective top and back radius you can make the donuts out of nearly anything that will hold together. I used MDF and shellac and I also made only one donut that was an average of the wedge angles that I needed for a 25' top radius and a 15' back radius.

Stick the thing on your router and make a mark on the lowest side and you are all set. When circumnavigating the guitar endeavor to keep the mark that you made (the low spot) always toward the center of the guitar and your binding channels will be pretty even all around. Again the beauty of this approach is that it does work and it doesn't cost a thing if you have a laminate trimmer. This could be done with a Dremel too but Dremels lack the power IMHO for cutting bindings.

Attachment:
DSC01525.jpg


I just used my binding jig last night to cut the shallow channel prior to truing up the sides with a block and cutting the real binding channel. Cutting a shallow channel first takes the top and back plate out of play while block sanding and greatly speeds up the truing up of your sides. This is a much appreciated Mario tip.

Attachment:
DSC02957.jpg


Note the sheet of paper on the wall. This is a copy of the climb cut schedule downloaded from Stew-Mac on the page with their binding router bits. It reminds me and guides me of the sequence for climb cuts. Also note the light coat of shellac 2-3" in on the top of the guitar. This helps avoid lifting fibers when removing binding tape and it makes for a cleaner binding cut too with less fuzzies.

Attachment:
DSC02958.jpg


This is a Williams jig and mine was built for me and signed by Don Williams. It's the easiest to use binding jig that I have found and provides excellent results. There are of course lots of ways to cut binding ledges but hopefully you will see from my post here that one solution costs virtually nothing once you have the laminate trimmer. I still use the laminate trimmer with the wedge for flush cutting the overhang off after gluing on the plates.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Its a small world Hesh I have the same thing taped to the door of the cabinet closest to the bench, and I actually pencil arrows on the top and back to remind me which way to cut.

My buddy Tim who is building his 1st guitar at my shop cut his binding slots in less than an hour using my True Channel jig. I watched over his shoulder and made a short cut on the guitar to show him how to hold and move the guitar and he was off and running. His binding was installed with out any touch up in the routed channels so with the right tools this is an easy task even for a beginner.

On my 1st guitar I probably spent a couple weeks messing with the channels and gluing the binding and purflings. I would work an hour or two and then be so frustrated I would have to walk away. The binding looks good but was way more work and frustration than it needed to be. On the second guitar the cutter on the dremel started to move out of the collet and by the time I noticed I had cut the channel way too deep on one side, after thinking the guitar was ruined and walking away, I cut all the channels that deep and added a second purfling. I now check the cutter depth and collet tightness before each cut though with the laminate trimmer it has never been a problem but I am still paranoid because of the dremel accident.

I have progressed to the point after 7 guitars that I actually enjoy doing the binding instead of fearing it.


Fred
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Hesh wrote:
Five years ago when I started building I didn't have a nice binding jig yet so I took a tip from Dan Earlywine and our friends at Stew-Mac and made a donut for my laminate trimmer.

In this case a donut is anything that acts as an angled base with hole in the middle for the binding router bit to pass through. The angle of the wedge on your donut is a function of the radius that you use for your tops and in a perfect world a second donut for your back radi. Once you calculate what this angle is for your respective top and back radius you can make the donuts out of nearly anything that will hold together. I used MDF and shellac and I also made only one donut that was an average of the wedge angles that I needed for a 25' top radius and a 15' back radius.

Stick the thing on your router and make a mark on the lowest side and you are all set. When circumnavigating the guitar endeavor to keep the mark that you made (the low spot) always toward the center of the guitar and your binding channels will be pretty even all around. Again the beauty of this approach is that it does work and it doesn't cost a thing if you have a laminate trimmer. This could be done with a Dremel too but Dremels lack the power IMHO for cutting bindings.



The only issue I see with this is that the angle is different all the way around. That's the reason my shelf is different depths. When the angle of the back is the steepest, the arms of the router base are lifted up, which in turn pushes the router bit out away from the guitar a bit (its axis being the bottom of the roller on the side), and also angles the cut slightly.

Maybe I'm missing something here but this solution wouldn't correct for that would it?
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
I just watched the video of the True Channel binding router jig over at Stew Mac. Geeze thats nice... stupid bank account!
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
I am wondering for now if I should just get this plus their dremel bit. Seems like this would prevent a lot of the issue, without breaking the bank.

I just went back and added a bit of cardboard under the base to lift it a bit, and re-routed a few areas that were having issues. The results are mixed. It looks like ill have a lot of fixing up to do. I don't really want to use this again, and I still have to rout the binding channel on the top, plus the purfling channels on both sides.
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Baldrick wrote:
Hesh wrote:
Five years ago when I started building I didn't have a nice binding jig yet so I took a tip from Dan Earlywine and our friends at Stew-Mac and made a donut for my laminate trimmer.

In this case a donut is anything that acts as an angled base with hole in the middle for the binding router bit to pass through. The angle of the wedge on your donut is a function of the radius that you use for your tops and in a perfect world a second donut for your back radi. Once you calculate what this angle is for your respective top and back radius you can make the donuts out of nearly anything that will hold together. I used MDF and shellac and I also made only one donut that was an average of the wedge angles that I needed for a 25' top radius and a 15' back radius.

Stick the thing on your router and make a mark on the lowest side and you are all set. When circumnavigating the guitar endeavor to keep the mark that you made (the low spot) always toward the center of the guitar and your binding channels will be pretty even all around. Again the beauty of this approach is that it does work and it doesn't cost a thing if you have a laminate trimmer. This could be done with a Dremel too but Dremels lack the power IMHO for cutting bindings.



The only issue I see with this is that the angle is different all the way around. That's the reason my shelf is different depths. When the angle of the back is the steepest, the arms of the router base are lifted up, which in turn pushes the router bit out away from the guitar a bit (its axis being the bottom of the roller on the side), and also angles the cut slightly.

Maybe I'm missing something here but this solution wouldn't correct for that would it?


You're correct of course.
Donut route may be a quick fix to get you by, or a cheap(ish) solution may be from stewmac, item 5248 Binding Router Guide http://www.stewmac.com/?PCR=1%3A100%3A1150%3A12850&IID=5248&actn=changedisplaycurrency&tab=&currencyid=3 (£26.35+p&p+duty) if you want to give it a try (I have heard often though that the dremel is not great for routing binding ledges), or go the laminate trimmer route/binding jig route if you want to be sure.
I have the same base as you with circle cutting jig for rosettes/inlay, good quality, but that edge guide is not really suitable for the reasons you state, and also doesn't look as if the guide roller is deep enough to keep the routing on the vertical with a donut. The stewmac roller looks deeper.
Or check out the Bogdanivich book for a relatively simple home made binding jig, may give you some ideas- book's amazing inspiration (Classical build), well worth the money for the pictures alone at £16.28. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Classical-Guitar-Making-Approach-Traditional/dp/1402720602/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269370012&sr=8-1
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Save your money on the stew mac routing guides for the dremel, they are not very good. Google binding cutter tools, and copy someones tool, Bill Cory over at Kitbuilder.com has a simple fixture you can make up quite cheaply but if you are going to continue making guitars don't spend a lot of money on dremel attachments, save your cash for real tools.

Fred
Author:  Dave Higham [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Despite what everyone seems to be saying, you can do it with a Dremel.

I bought the Stewmac router base and edge guide
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bindings,_t ... _Base.html
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... Guide.html

I then made a component to register on the side of the guitar and keep the router vertical, like so;
Attachment:
Binding jig 1.jpg


The two bits of aluminium rod bear against the side of the instrument.
I took the roller off and drilled and countersunk two holes in the edge guide and attached it to my plywood part;
Attachment:
Binding jig 2.jpg


Then reassembled the rest of the edge guide;
Attachment:
Binding jig 3.jpg


Then I made a 'donut'. You might have to get someone who has a lathe to do this for you.
Attachment:
Binding jig 4.jpg


The donut was attached to the router base with double sided tape;
Attachment:
Binding jig 5.jpg


When the whole lot is assembled, it looks like this;
Attachment:
Binding jig 6.jpg


I would strongly advise buying the spiral downcut bit from Stewmac. It cuts much cleaner than the bit they show used with the edge guide.
Just to show it does work, it was used to cut these binding and purfling rebates. The only thing I had to touch with a chisel was that inside corner because, of course, the router bit leaves a radius.
Attachment:
ssbg 55.jpg


And this is what it looked like finished.
Attachment:
SSBG 58.JPG


Click on the photos to see them in a bigger format.
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Hey guys what about this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Martin-guitar-Stand ... 1c1116165d

It says Martin guitar but I assume its fine with any classical as well...

Ahh that thing Dave made is actually similar to the Ebay item I linked. Interesting idea.
Author:  Chris Oliver [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
If your heart is set on a StewMac binging jig for the Dremel you may want to wait for Swap-a-palooza 2010...

There seems to be some for sale every time.

I'm with Fred on this issue... although... I have got to say, great work Dave.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Actually if you make the donut to the correct angle/wedge and also make a dedicated one for the top and back radius AND .... :) you don't flatten the upper bout for fretboard extension fitting this fix, the donut, works quite well but not perfect or as well as the other solutions. It was never intended to be a great solution but moreover a cheap and fast way for Stew-Mac kit builders to not get even angrier when they realize that to build a decent guitar, any kit for that matter, one needs some dedicated tools.... :) Bet no one ever told most of us that we would be spending as much as we do did they.... :?

Fred bro I'll bet that the diagram for climb cuts lives in many shops besides ours....

Dave!!! Where you been man? :D Nice to see you posting my friend. Very cool looking guitar too.
Author:  Rob Warren [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
After studying the pics on Stew Mac's website, I marched off to the hardware store, bought some drawer slides and 1/2" plywood, and built my own version of it. A tower with the slides on it, and a base that my laminate trimmer mounts to. You could do something similar for the dremel base you have. Put a small ring or donut on the bottom to guide the set up on the top surface, then a way to index on the side (maybe similar to the router table set up in Kincaid's book) and you should be good to go. I even built holders for the body, just like the Stew Mac ones out of wood and hardware store parts. Works great for me!

However, I have to second Fred's recommendation on the laminate trimmer, but you could make it work with the dremel. Just don't ask for pictures of mine. It's not pretty at all!!! But it does the trick!
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
Chris Oliver wrote:
If your heart is set on a StewMac binging jig for the Dremel you may want to wait for Swap-a-palooza 2010...

There seems to be some for sale every time.

I'm with Fred on this issue... although... I have got to say, great work Dave.



My heart is set on one of those laminate trimmers and a jig actually hehe. Maybe ill wait for the Swap and see what there is to see. Do I need to pay to access the swap? Or is that only for people selling?
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Questions about binding with a Dremel
I will have a PC 310 router with binding jig from Luthier Tool Company attached, complete, for sale in the Swapalooza! Eat Drink

Dave F.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/