Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26551		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Robert Renick [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
I am truly enamored with the simplicity and cost of these jigs, and look forward to making one. I got the charcoal starter, but it is too wide for a 2" pipe. Do these bend? I am hoping a squish in the vise will be able to make it the right size, but don't want to break it. Am I looking to have it float within the pipe or touch the sides? Any other suggestions from those who who have made one are welcome, I see many different types of pipe used from muffler, steel plumbing, aluminum, copper, pros and cons of these and which works best.

Thanks,
Rob
Author:  evanmelstad [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
I have bent two of these with a clamp, and they still work. If you get too pointy on the end the encapsulating material will crack a little and you will see the red-hot element when you turn it on, so I would bend as little as possible to make it fit. Mine touches the sides of the pipe in one spot. A router speed controller is very handy with these, as they get very very hot.

Re: pipes, be careful with heating galvanized pipes--it releases nasty stuff.
Author:  mateo4x4 [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
evanmelstad wrote:

Re: pipes, be careful with heating galvanized pipes--it releases nasty stuff.



Get a cheap propane or mapp gas torch and pre-burn the galvanizing of the pipe...outside! That stuff is really nasty on your lungs but you should be able to get it hot enough to burn it off. Also, either wrap your wood in foil or wrap the pipe...the stains you can get from the pipe can be pretty bad.
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
I bent mine when hot with a big vise. It doesn't touch the sides anywhere. I used stainless pipe and a welded end cap on one end and a piece of bar underneath to facilitate holding in a bench vise. The bar extended past the back of the pipe which made a nice place to rest the handle of the charcoal starter.
As was stated don't use galvanized. Find a metal fabrication and or rail maker shop. You will be able to get any sized pipe you want. Aluminum or stainless would be my choices. I will take a few pictures for you if you want.
If you can't weld should cost anywhere from free to a six pack or a $20. You need to know how to talk to tradesman and the like. If you are humble and don't expect anything for nothing and value their time and skill and be willing to pay you will often walk out with your stuff for free and possibly a new friend or acquaintance that you might be able to help out down the road.
Link
Author:  Robert Renick [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Link Van Cleave wrote:
t.
You need to know how to talk to tradesman and the like. If you are humble and don't expect anything for nothing and value their time and skill and be willing to pay you will often walk out with your stuff for free and possibly a new friend or acquaintance that you might be able to help out down the road.
Link

Link,
I would love to see a picture. So perhaps today is a good day to jump start my all wheel slide work truck so I can talk to tradesmen, don't use it much in the winter since all it takes is one wet leaf on the road and I am in a ditch. We have a perfect guy, retired welder but keeps his shop to stay out of his wife's hair, I figured I would stop by for this, but I would like to know what to ask for. I am guessing I will walk out without paying cash, just have to listen to some stories about the old days for an hour. I love the small town life. I think he would enjoy this type of thing.

I was thinking it would be a good idea to get the heater hot before bending, thanks for the confirmation.

Sounds like steering clear of galvi is a good idea, it is nasty.
Rob
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Rob,
I am off to the shop and I will take some pics and post this evening.
Link
Author:  SteveSmith [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Guys, you can do your own research but at the temps we're working ( below 500F) galvanized pipe is not a problem.
Author:  Dennis Leahy [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
The electric charcoal starter that I bought (about $9, at Menards) was able to be crushed in a vise. I crushed it a bit, then backed off on the vise screw, then crushed it a bit more, and on until it would just barely fit in my pipe. (crammed-in, touching the pipe walls, but that probably does not matter ) I was concerned about breaking the steel tubing that covers the heating element, and this method did work. hahahahah Link! I didn't think of auto-hot forging!

I bought a chrome plated tailpipe extension at an auto parts store, about $5 or $10 (I can't remember), and bought 2 U-shaped muffler clamps (just used the bolts, not the brackets.) Used a piece of scrap wood for a base, and countersunk holes in its bottom face, near the edge, to allow me to screw the U-bolts down and hold the tail pipe (very securely.) I put a piece of aluminum flashing between the pipe and the wood, and can see that I may want several layers of aluminum flashing instead of just one (aluminum dissipates heat well.)

I plug it in to get it red hot, then switch the plug to go through a "dead-man" foot switch (take your foot off, as in "die and keel over", and the switch is off.) Then it's a matter of depressing the switch occasionally during bending, or maybe better said as occasionally taking my foot off to cool the pipe down a bit. A high wattage router controller might be better, for dialing in the correct temperature, but it's not difficult with the foot switch.

Image

Dennis
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Link Van Cleave wrote:
Aluminum or stainless would be my choices.


A pipe that can 'store' more heat (higher SpecificHeat-heat capacity/kg.) tends to keep the temp more constant, and also avoids 'hot and cool spots' if your heater element is touching the pipe. It will take longer to heat up, though.
So, thicker is better , IMO, if you have a choice, especially if you are using aluminum rather than steel/iron/copper.

BTW, even though the SH of Al is quite a bit greater (double) that of iron, it is less than 1/3 as dense, so you need a thicker Al section to equal the heat capacity of an iron or steel tube.

(I believe some folks have stuffed their pipes with steel wool or similar, but check on this..)

Cheers
John
Author:  John A [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Is exhaust pipe from the auto shop (pep boys) galvanized ? It has the grayish color but doesn't have a look of those galvanized trash cans.

I stuff mine with aluminum foil on the end.
I like the chrome tailpipe but those are usually double walled, and designed to transfer less heat to the outside of the pipe (to avoid burning the plastic bumpers etc on cars.)
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
I don't believe my pipe is galvanized. I used a truck tail pipe extension that was about 22 " or so long. I cut half of the smaller, un-flared part in half, slit a 1/4" slice, lengthwise, with a hack saw, and squeezed it inside the other piece to give me a thicker pipe. My heater touches the sides on both sides. No issues.
Attachment:
P1030062 (Large).JPG
Author:  John A [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Mine is the same as your Waddy - it looks galvinized... that is why I was curious.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
I didn't ask, and it was slick and shiny steel, not rough like galvanized pipe, but I suppose that doesn't mean anything. I have not gotten any staining from it, and I use it directly on all the wood I bend. Burning, yes, staining, no! It had a very thin oily coat, and was dirty when I bought it, but I cleaned it off and it was just smooth and shiny.
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
No issues with galvanized pipe unless you plan on bringing it up to temperatures that will instantly ignite your sides (above 800F). I suppose however that a hot torch and a lot of carelessness could get it there.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
I think the hottest I've ever gotten mine is 500*f, and that was when I wasn't paying attention. Had it on full for quick heat up.
Author:  John A [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
I keep mine on full all the time - no controller. I use paper towel and spray the paper towel. Although I am still working on bending my first set - but it is going well.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Whoa, very timely thread for me. I was just going to start one to ask what kind of pipe to use and if people bend those charcoal elements. I just ordered my router controller and going to a machine shop tomorrow to get the pipe.
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
As promised
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Dennis,
That looks good ! You could put a small piece of wonder board under the pipe. Wonder board for those who don't know is the cement board used for tile backing instead of doing a mortar bed.
Link
Author:  Robert Renick [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Thank you all for the great pics and tips. I went to the local muffler shop and paid $2 for a scrap of pipe. He described it as aluminized and said that it would not rust or corrode. I guess it is similar to galvanized in that it is steel that has a process done to it. He had another customer and I did not want to be a time drain so I did not ask more about the process. Sounds like the same pipe that Waddy and John A are using.

Dennis, that chrome looks so cool (hot) that I think I would have to make race car noises when I used it. Vroooooom

Link, thanks for the pics, that is slick, curious how much heat sinkin' the metal bar causes, especially if it is held in a metal vise.

To proceed today, I have the heater bent, was very easy, let it get hot and squished it in the vice, no big deal, looks like the picture Link posted. I bought a dimmer switch per the sound salon recommendation, 500w heater, 600w dimmer ($5)and will wire that in today. I like the base that Waddy made, compact and gets the control up over the work for easy access. I have that same controller for my heating blanket, but I would like to keep the 2 separate as they will likely both be used in the same day.

John Abercrombie, interesting tip with the steel wool, hoping some one will chime in who has used the trick and confirm its benefit, how about filling it all with aluminum foil like John A did with the tip, just more?

A hearty thank you for all the tips. My personal experience of being a self taught woodworker was full of frustration with all the mistakes that had to be made, and no one to ask for help. This really makes the process more fun in that we can get to work without reinventing the wheel in each shop.
Rob
Author:  unkabob [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
I have a heated waist-caul for bending sides and I filled it with clean,dry sand to spread and retain the heat. Sand will not short out to the pipe like foil or steel-wool could.

Just a consideration.

Bob
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Quote:
curious how much heat sinkin' the metal bar causes, especially if it is held in a metal vise.


Not much if any. The last 6" of the pipe are free of the bar so you can work all around the pipe if needed and that is where most of the heat goes. The pipe is thick enough to give a very even heat. The element doesn't touch the sides at all.
I thought about drilling out the bar to dissipate heat but in practise it wasn't needed.

Link
Author:  George L [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Resurrecting an old thread...

I stopped by a local muffler shop today and the guy there was nice enough to let me have a scrap piece of 2" pipe. He said it was the widest they had. I came home, heated my electric charcoal starter and narrowed it by squeezing it in a vice. Now I can just slide it inside the 2" pipe (touches in a couple of spots), but even though I worked slowly and carefully the heating element did crack in one place. Is that a big deal? It still seems to heat up just fine. (Full disclosure: I'm not an electrician and never played one on TV.) Do I need to buy a different heating element, find a larger pipe and try again?

Thanks,
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
The same thing happened to mine. Did you heat yours up first? I did not and think that may help with the bending next time. It has still been working for a while after I cracked it, but apparently it is bound to short and burn out sooner or later.
Author:  George L [ Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making a charcoal lighter bending jig question
Yes, I let it heat fully before setting to work, went slowly and reheated a couple of times as I tightened the vice. I almost made it down to where it would fit in a 2" pipe, but it cracked at about the 2 1/4" mark. Guess I'll use it as is until it gives out.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/