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A question of shop size.
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26533		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Shawn Hines [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  A question of shop size.
I am considering the construction of a dedicated shop. I mostly build ukuleles and even though they have a diminished size I would think that my collection of wood and tools would equal or rival most guitar makers. I am in the initial planning phase and I have to propose a size to my home owners association. Just wondering what you guys think that a good size would be. I know it sounds vague and everybody wants a ginormous shop. But I need to be practical. I have all the regular tools that any other maker would have: bandsaw, large drill press, jointer, drum sander, workbenches etc. Just wanted to pick your brains and see what you would think is plausable. Thank you. -shawn
Author:  runamuck [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
Shawn Hines wrote:
I am considering the construction of a dedicated shop. I mostly build ukuleles and even though they have a diminished size I would think that my collection of wood and tools would equal or rival most guitar makers. I am in the initial planning phase and I have to propose a size to my home owners association. Just wondering what you guys think that a good size would be. I know it sounds vague and everybody wants a ginormous shop. But I need to be practical. I have all the regular tools that any other maker would have: bandsaw, large drill press, jointer, drum sander, workbenches etc. Just wanted to pick your brains and see what you would think is plausable. Thank you. -shawn


I would think you are the only person who can answer your question.

I'd do a scale drawing and place all your tools, benches, wood storage and and so forth and from there comes your answer. Also, plan for some expansion; for example you don't list a table saw or dust collection on your list.

I have an 1100 sq ft shop but I could do with considerably less than that if I were just making guitars.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
A standard double garage size of 24' X 24' would be generous. If you are efficient, then a single garage size of 12' X 24' would work. How you organize yourself inside of the space is what will be important.

Also, professional? Hobby? How much production do you need to put through? These will really determine how much space you need.
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
It does all depend on how you work, how you set up your work flow and how efficient you can be. Some guys can get it done in 150 sft while others feel cramped in 500 sft.

I built my shop dedicated to guitar making. I made it as large as I could with the space that I had. Mine is 185 sft. I have a full size cabinet saw, 14" bandsaw, 24" drum sander, 12" bench top drill press (I could fit a 17" floor model in the same spot though), bench, go-bar deck/bench, a semi-knock down spraybooth and various wall cabinets. I could (If I had the orders) produce 24 guitars a year in there.

I could use more space though, but working in that small shop will allow me to move to 400 - 500 sft and feel like I've been given a massive workshop.

If I were to do it again (and I hope to in the next 3 years or so) I'd build a shop that is 18' x 30' = 540 sft. I'd want the ceiling height to be 9' at least and I'd put windows near the top of the walls to allow indirect sunlight in. I'd build in a spray booth at one end, making it 8' x 10', the remaining 10' x10' would be for wood storage and go-bar deck and glue up area, and that would be my humidity controled room. The remainder would be the tooling room. 18' x 20' would be more then enough to set up a good work flow. The entire shop would be heated, but I wouldn't feel I'd need to control the humidity of the tooling room so much.
Oh, I would also ensure I have a 2pc bathroom in the shop.... :D
Author:  Robert Renick [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
My shop design trick has been to draw and cutout all the tool footprints, benches, and people to scale on heavy cardboard, then hot glue or use sticky magnets on the cardboard. Then put them all on the refrigerator and move them around until the layout is how you like it.
Rob
Author:  Shawn Hines [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
sorry to be so vague. and i did forget to mention my buddy the tablesaw.

right now i am doing one offs quite slowly between my garage and basement. i want to get out of both of them so i can park in the garage and finish the basement. i am by no means utilizing all of the space of both areas.

i would like to start doing some very small scale production maybe 5-10 ukes every 2-3 months. i would like to be efficient :) actually i would like to maybe hear from some people that have efficient shops. i just got rid of my dust collector when i sold my cnc router so i am looking to buy a new one and was kind of waiting till i see where my next workspace will be before i decide.
Author:  stan thomison [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
Guess it depends on what your doing and how much. That would probably go along if pro or hobby. I asked Bryan Galloup this when went to shcool and that was the first basic answer. As I went further, he suggest 1200-1400 sq. ft. I though then that was way big. I don't think that now. I went from a basement/garage shop (house on a hill) of about 900 sq ft. divided in 3 rooms, plus an area where AC/heat and hot water heater was about 10x 20 which gave me room for wood and other storage. I thought that was getting small. Now in about 400 sq ft 20x20 and long for the old place.

Bottom line. Build as big as you can with what area and money you have. If can only go 20x20 then do that if can go 1200-1600 sq ft do that. I again would note if only doing a few instruments a year less is ok. If pro or thinking of that and expanding larger is better. If I didn't live in a snooty gated community with jerks for home owner assoc. and border golf course I would build bigger. .
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
I have a luxury of space with a 26' X 38' main shop & a 10' X 24' extension.
The extension houses a spray room, (10 X 10) storage and an office.
I do other work besides building instruments, but I love the extra space I have.
With a shop this large, humidity control becomes an issue. I have a 10 X 12 "building room" which is humidity controlled. There is another 10 X 12 foot room that has my messy sanding machines & downdraft sanding table behind closed doors.
If I always worked alone & only built instruments, I would be very happy with half the space. Another person takes up a lot of room & it is something to consider.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
I have about 400 square feet of which about 320 is tightly RH controlled. I find that I have enough space to do everything that I want including room for additional tools in the future.

My shop has a dirty room (main shop) and a clean area in the front that I use at present for a break-room/office/waste-time-on-line area. My plan always was to use the office area as my main bench area someday and build another break-room somewhere else in my basement.

Something that I have not addressed yet that would be helpful to you too I think is storage for work-in-progress. I have a few walls where some carpeted shelves would permit me to have multiple guitars in progress and/or repairs in progress.

Above all plan your electric requirements and future requirements well. I added extra circuits to my shop so that my larger tools are not on the same circuits as say my dust collector and every tool is on a different circuit than my lights. This way if I kill myself with a tool I can still see..... :D

Also give some thought to how to make RH control in your shop easy, cheap, and effective - while planning and before building your shop is the time to think this out.

Good luck.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
I built a new shop 5 years ago , it was 24 by 40 foot with 2 floors, I remember thinking about all the room I had . I am considering doubling the size as we speak. I could fill up the silver dome is I had a chance
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
bluescreek wrote:
I built a new shop 5 years ago , it was 24 by 40 foot with 2 floors, I remember thinking about all the room I had . I am considering doubling the size as we speak. I could fill up the silver dome is I had a chance


Yes, but John, you sell guitar components as well as make them. I think you're a little more specialized than most ;) I honestly don't believe that I could ever fill 960 sft x 2 (floors) for guitar building.....Anyone want to build me a shop so I can try :D
Author:  the Padma [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
Ummm

Didn't Yoda teach us that size don't matter?

blessings
the
Padma
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
I am in a converted garage at 20X25 feet. I wish it was twice the size because I have to move equipment around to use it. Everything is on wheels so I wheel this over and use it and then wheel it back to get the next thing. I do have five work benches each with lots of storage so this may be the problem. No practical room for a spray booth either. If I had the opportunity to build a shop 1000 square feet with 9 or 10 foot ceilings would be the starting point. 2X6 construction well insulated would also be a must but it is pretty cold here in the winter. (Like last night-2 inches of snow.) If you are going to use a larger dust collector having it in its own space is great to keep the noise down. Mine is in the garage next to the shop and it is great but I forget to empty the bag sometimes. Having windows is great but it cuts way back on cabinet space. I recently removed a window and have not missed it but I have two remaining with a window in the entry door.
Author:  Jason Hall [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
So if You were to build a "controlled" room solely for storage/glue up area, how big is sufficient? I'm interested to see where this thread goes, I'm in the first stages of getting set up myself, and am trying to work out how big i should make for the tasks that require RH control.
Author:  mateo4x4 [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
I have been building (instruments as well as other stuff...motorcycle engine, etc) in a shop with only about 12 sq.ft of open floor space. Literally...it is about 2' by 6' of room for my feet! That means that much can be done with optimization of your space and tools. It also means that having a too small shop is a major pain in my a**. [headinwall] laughing6-hehe

I would concentrate on long term storage as well as short term/readily available storage. Having certain things at hand and the other stuff out of the way will do much for your ability to work well. Next, I would do as others here have recommended and use scale sized cut outs and drawings to plan your space and where the tools/benches will go. Having an obligated spray area, a glue area, etc would be great but, not really necessary. Maybe have places to set things out of the way while glue dries, or while finishes cure, etc.

-Matthew
Author:  stan thomison [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question of shop size.
I was going to have some duct work done to control temp in the shop (finished out garage) and do a humidifier and dehumidifier. My AC and appliance repair guy then told me most motels change out heat/ac units every couple of years if needed or not. He said most are big enough to do about 1000 sq ft easy. They either toss them out or sell them for $50-200 bucks depend if need work. He said he gets them and usually has about $75. in them to run perfect. That way control heat and air without messing with rest of housing stuff. As cheap as having duct work in and can turn of and on and set temp. Will need to do a 220 for it, but no big deal there, I have plenty of room in panel.

I also buying garage door insulation. It is about 2" thick and fits in the sections of garage door and looks like drywall. Works since can't take off garage door and put in a french door and build wall inside the main garage door would just take up needed space as door still needs to work. Going to lay moisture barrier and wood floor. Should stay consistent temp and control humidity well.

Just some thoughts and ideas for folks building shops and concerned about temp and humidity control. Might check out local motels and hotels, might get a good deal.
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