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Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
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Author:  Dave_E [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
Hi All,

Please note that I am NOT dissing the supplier here, just to let you know that the particular strain of sitka (Lutz) spruce he sells, make tops that are not tape friendly. What I mean is putting any kind of low stick tape on the soundboard will result in fibers and even chunks coming up with the tape! wow7-eyes I have NEVER had this problem before using everyday blue painters tape on a sitka top. I use it to layout the bridge position, put it around the periphery before routing the binding channels and marking fretboard location. I've had 2 of these tops that have givien me a case of the red a**.

Now with that warning out of the way, here's where I could use your help. I have a good 1/2 dozen of these large slivers at various places in the top of a complete less finish guitar body. I want to stain the top. How should I go about trying to fill these so I can work towards a "flat" even finish? I've tried stick shellac before and that was very noticeable. Am I working on a lost cause? gaah Thanks!

Dave
Author:  Rod True [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
Use the off cuts from the top to make some slivers to match the ones torn out from your top and glue them in with HHG. Sand level and proceed to finish. You might have a few small gaps to fill but wait till your into your finish layers and drop fill as needed.

How are you pulling the tape up? When pulling tape up off a sound board, make sure and pull the tape at a 90* angle to the direction it's layed down. Don't pull it up, but rather pull it along the surface of the top. This should help. Also a wash coat of shellac on the top is a good idea, even before putting the rosette in, before routing the binding channels (can help with tear out) and will help so you don't pull slivers out when pulling binding tape off.
Author:  truckjohn [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
I am not sure that it is directly related to the type of Spruce you are using... or to the suppiler...

Cumpiano does mention this problem in his book... that you should be really careful about pulling the tape off at an angle to avoid pulling chunks.... It is always the sort of thing that bites me the worst when I have a top that is perfectly levelled and finished... and I am taping in bindings -- then I pull one off and ooohhhhh dang.... Look at that!

One caution is that not all blue painters tapes are created equal -- there are 10,000 grades from "Super-ultra Delicate" low release tapes to standard "High release" blue painters tapes... and some allow a much longer on-surface time than others...

and not all glues play nicely with all painters tapes.... Some seem to stick to painters tape just as well as wood...

Thanks

John
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
Do not stain the top. You can use your shellac sticks to make it look as natural as possible and the add some toner to the first few coats of lacquer. This way there's no stain for the wood to take unevenly.
Rods suggestion is is probably better if you have really large splinters. Either way I would stain the top, I'd tone the finish.
Good luck!
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
If you heat the tape a little with a blow dryer it pulls up easier though still do what Rob says also. I tape join the plates at about .150" thick so will sand out any splinter pulls and once the top is completed I coat with a couple coats of shellac, which also helps prevent this problem and protects it from getting small dings while working on the body. After the binding and rosette are complete the shellac will sand off, though I really only worry about getting to bare wood under the bridge and finger board, as I seal the guitar with shellac before lacquering.

If the splinters are only a few thousands deep they will fill with lacquer and be hard to see.

Fred
Author:  Dave_E [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the replys. Yes I have a handle on how to remove the tape, been doing it for years, that's what is perplexing me on just these two tops. This has just never happened before. Yeah maybe I got a roll of "Friday have some extra stikum", who knows. I do think from now on though, I will be putting a "wash coat" on right after the plates are joined and to thickness. [:Y:]

Dave
Author:  Colin S [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
Never had any problem with fibre being pulled out from soundboard wood of any variety, but apart from when I use tape to join the soundboard halves, I never put tape onto bare wood. When taping the binding on for instance the top where the tape is going to stick has a couple of wash coats of shellac.

Colin
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
Dave I read this earlier this morning and although others have covered this ground very well I want to try to tie it all together in as much as many of the tips here are what I would consider a system for avoiding lifting fibers.

I have used a lot of Lutz without ever noticing any greater tendency to lift fibers than other woods. My Lutz has come from both well known sources as well so I seriously doubt that either of these folks have certain trees that love to shed fibers.

My system for avoiding lifting fibers is this:

1) Brush on a thin coat of shellac about 2 - 3" from the edge of the top inward. The shellac coat (I use Zinnser "Seal Coat" dewaxed) not only helps the tape come off cleanly it also, I think...., helps contribute to a crisper and less fuzzy cut of the binding channel with the binding router bit.

2) In my neck of the woods 3M blue tape from HD or Lowes comes in at least 4 stickiness's. I see 7, 14, 21 day clean lift and also "low tack" and the low tack is the only blue tape that I use in my shop. I do NOT use blue tape for gluing/clamping on my bindings in that it is not strong enough for the level of clamping that I want to have. Instead I use Stew-Mac brown tape but others have great luck with strapping tape and other tapes.

3) When putting down the tape and again it's going on a shellaced area I try to not press the very end down or turn the end over so that I am not having to scrape with my finger nails to lift the tape upon removal.

4) I pull the tape up at 45 degrees to the grain direction and when I pull the tap up I am carefully looking for any sign of lifting fibers.

5) I use a hair drier and warm the tape in advance of where I am pulling it up. The heat softens the adhesive and helps it release cleanly.

So as you can see this is a system approach at least for me and since I have been doing the above I have not lifted any fibers in some years now.

Good luck and Lutz is killer spruce - the Euro of North America!!! [:Y:]
Author:  Dave_E [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
Hi Hesh,

Hey I couldn't agree with you more, I love the looks and so far the tone I get from my Lutz spruce! [clap]

Dave
Author:  the Padma [ Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beware...All spruce soundboards are not equal
Dave_E wrote:
Hi All,

Please note that I am NOT dissing the supplier here, just to let you know that the particular strain of sitka (Lutz) spruce he sells, make tops that are not tape friendly.

Dave


Well you may not be dissing Shane or Mario, however you sure is dissing the Lutz.

How do you know a whole stick of lutz with hundreds tops in that stick is a particular strain that is not tape friendly....just because of two tops. Hmmm???

Thats like saying all humans are a write off because someone killed someone else.

Thats like saying because the high E sting on the guitar you made broke so I guess all your instruments are flawed.

Just something to think about David dude.

Blessings
duh
Padma
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