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Guitar building, A new way of thinking
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Author:  Chris Beebe [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I have had a change of heart recently on how I will be building guitars. First of all I want to let everyone know that I am a hobbyist and have no desire to ever build or repair guitars for a living. This is my therapy from a stressful job, so many of my techniques would not be practical for other builders. Now for my revelation, when I began building I read somewhere that someone wanted to start building a guitar but this person did not have alot of money to spare on a hobby. The advice that was given to the guy was that lutherie is a very expensive hobby and if you can’t afford certain items then you should not pursue it. This advice never sat well with me, even though I was spending literally thousands of dollars on building my first guitar. I always had to buy the rarest of woods and the best tools. I even had a machinist build jigs for me, and this was my first build! I was way out of control. I was also under the impression that a superb instrument could not be made without these materials. I did end up with a fine guitar, however to this day I have a hard time justifying many of the items I thought I needed for this build. It’s been about six months since I have been in the shop working and have used this time to reflect on how I am going to continue this hobby? Do I continue to scour the internet multiple times a day looking for the newest sets of tone wood? Do I continue to rush home after work to intercept the packages so my wife does not think I’m spending too much on a piece of wood (if she only knew)? Sounds like an addiction doesn’t it.
I have come to a point where I want to buck the system; I believe that an excellent guitar can be built from locally available woods. I believe that an excellent guitar can be built with a small number of inexpensive tools. So here I am, rambling on about how I want to change the way I build guitars. I guess this is the first step in a journey I hope will end well. I am planning on documenting this process not to cause civil unrest for the masses that build to please the masses, but to possibly motivate that guy who could not afford the high cost of jumping into the hobby of guitar building.
Stay tuned…
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
Chris Beebe wrote:
I have come to a point where I want to buck the system; I believe that an excellent guitar can be built from locally available woods. I believe that an excellent guitar can be built with a small number of inexpensive tools. So here I am, rambling on about how I want to change the way I build guitars. I guess this is the first step in a journey I hope will end well. I am planning on documenting this process not to cause civil unrest for the masses that build to please the masses, but to possibly motivate that guy who could not afford the high cost of jumping into the hobby of guitar building.
Stay tuned…


I absolutely agree with you.
That's why my shop is devoid of jigs and super Zoot.
I love working the woods by hand and making guitars that players can afford.

Mike
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
It doesn't HAVE to cost an arm and a leg.....

some folks buy all their jigs, some make them.
some folks buy all their parts pre-made, some make them.
some folks out source their finishing, some do it themselves (this does not necessarily save $ though)
some folks spend outragious amounts on wood, some are frugal and find the best deals.

It's all about how you choose to approach this hobby. I think I'm probably in the middle of the pack. I purchased some specific tools, I've also made most every jig in my shop. I don't buy expensive tone woods, but rather get what I can to keep building.

My moto is; "Have what you need, use what you have" need and want can be two different things....
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
Hi Chris,

I feel that you don't need a lot of fancy jigs and tools-not that i don't have them now,but when I started out I built with all hand tools. The only machine we had was a radial arm saw.
We didn't even have a band saw!

Remember "it's not the tool that matters-it's the nut behind the handle"
Author:  coke_zero [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I'm very much the same person. When I started playing guitar more seriously I had to have a great guitar
(or two). When I did sport I had to have the best equipment. When I needed a computer I bought the best, it's just the way I was (not so much anymore though).

It's funny though, I'm almost the opposite with guitar making. I have done everything I can to not spend money except where I really have to. Now things are getting a little depressing when things take me 2 hours to do when with better equipment I could do it in 20 minutes. However, I'm going to stick at it like this for my first few builds and then maybe start spending some money.


I hope things work out how you want. A hobby is only as expensive as you make it! Do you need a £200 pair of specially moulded running shoes to do a bit of running a week or will £50 ones suffice? laughing6-hehe
Author:  winterdune [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I'm on my first build and I intend to use only one power tool (drill press). The more stuff you fail to do yourself the more alienated you are from what you are doing. Building a guitar for me is about connecting (with all sorts of things) and for me, sticking jigs, electrical tools and so on in between you and the wood disconnects you from what you are doing. Besides, I don't have the money...
Sean
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
look forward to your posings.

By the way I spent less than $500 on my first scratch build IRW B/S Koa top with Curly Maple binding built with the tools I already had on hand. A few years later I started selling some of my work. I would invest the 1/2 the sale price (once in pocket and never before) into wood and supplies and half into tools and tooling. I paid particular attention to buying the tools or tooling that really improved joinery first. Then I focused on set-up tooling after that I focused on finishing tooling. If a new tool would not make a true significant difference in the quality of my work then I put it on a wish list for some time later. After about 2 years of this, selling 3-5 guitars a year I was pretty well set up with tools and wood to where I am now nearly 10 years down the road. It is easy to get caught up in W.A.S. and T.A.S. (Wood and Tool Acquisition Syndrome) and let things get out of control. The funny thing is a large part of the wish list i created was never fulfilled because I realized I did not really need a lot of the toys on the list. Being a hobby builder or a for sale builder; you have to look at things from a budget stand point. Never-never hide things from your spouse. That in its self is a whole lot bigger problem the spending too much money. So I know where you come from.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
Chris,

Very interesting.

But you're way off base on one point: "I guess this is the first step in a journey I hope will end well." It may go well, but it will not end. :D

You might be interested in reading a few books that touch on what you describe.

"Shop Class as Soul Craft" by Matthew Crawford

"The Nature and Art of Workmanship" by David Pye

The Pye book is out of print, but can be found if you dig.

Keep us posted.

Pat
Author:  WudWerkr [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I have been scouring through peoples post and have seen jigs that I could make at a fraction of the cost with my own spin to them . I have looked at the tools I have from building other things over the years and figured out ways to use them in luthrie . For example , I have a Mortiser for tables cabinets . I said " why cant i use that to cut the pocket for a truss rod / Carbon fibre stiffiner .

1 Jig later and " bobs yer uncle " LOL laughing6-hehe So its alot about figuring out creative ways to use what you have.

I have purchased several pieces of wood here , however I also have access to a local "35miles" saw mill . Excellent source for walnut / Cherry / Etc:

Look for "custom wood shops" in your area Many have access to excellent quality woods at a Fraction of what you pay here . As long as you can work it down to what you need .
Author:  James A. [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
While I understand completely where you are coming from, I love tools!. Part of the fun in building a guitar for me has been to acquire neat and interesting tools. I don't know why, I just like them. My only goal is to build everything from scratch, meaning I don't want to outsource any of the building (I am a hobbyist, not a professional). If I can find a tool that will make this easier than I am for it so long as the wallet can handle it.

And while I don't make a habit of it, I have hidden a package from my wife before. Forgiveness is easier than permision!!!!
Author:  DennisK [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
Rod has some good points. It largely depends on how much of the work you want to delegate to other people. Many build their own side benders, binding jigs, drum sanders, you name it. But the router for the binding jig, heating blanket for the bender, and motor for the sander aren't possible for most people to make, so you're stuck paying a company to do it.

I'm sort of middle of the road too. I try to get by with as few tools as possible, building what I can and and buying the cheapest good quality I can find.

For materials, not every guitar has to be built out of the BEST wood. Sometimes a special set comes along that defines the soul of the instrument it wants to be built into, but most of the time I prefer to go with middle grades. Might as well spend a little money for something you're going to be spending so much time on, but you have to keep in mind the time spent earning that money too :)
Also, keep in mind the purpose of each piece. Top braces make a big difference to sound, so good straight grained wood is worth it. Back braces aren't quite so critical, so you can use second grade brace wood. The neck shaft needs to support a lot of tension and remain straight, so don't skimp there. But the heel block, and head and tail blocks don't need super straight grain.

Hibdon Hardwoods has an awesome low-grade wood sale going on. $2 for neck blanks, and $10 for mahogany back/side sets. I grabbed a bunch of necks to use as heel blocks, attempt to chop into kerfing strips, and laminate into head/tail blocks, and some sides to use for backstrip reinforcements.

So far I'm a little over $1000 for tools and materials on my first guitar, and I shouldn't be needing much more. I did have some tools already, plus access to my dad's large collection. I definitely could have saved $100+ if I'd wanted to though. Materials and router bits for inlay work, pre-made purfling and kerfing, binding with rosewood strips laminated on. All just to make it look better and/or save time.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
Chris, sounds like a noble pursuit you are embarking on, good on yea for it.
Personally I follow more along the lines of Rods philosophy, there is a middle ground, it all depends what your goals are.
Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing your postings, maybe you should do a build thread.

How come we dont have many build threads here anyway?

Ed
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
Five years ago when I started on this forum and I had built my first 5 guitars on my own in my bathroom..... I used to say things like you just did Chris. :)

I remember saying that I had no intention of ever selling my stinkin guitars and no interest in repair - I was only building to help me relax from my high stress job in the software business in corporate America.

At every opportunity I purchased the coolest looking zoot that I could find. I knew nothing about wood, woodworking, had never worked with tools before and did not own any either. I thought that bandsaw was a saw the was used to cut bands.... :? :D idunno My avatar on the OLF was a white toilet on a black background because my table top drill press sat on my toilet.....

Frequently I would post pics of my latest WAS on the OLF and I did so very much business with Bob C. aka: The Zootman that he adopted me as his nephew and hence the additional aka for Zootman of Uncle Bob was born....

Right now I am building my 20th and it's has an inexpensive WRC top from an OLF auction and a nice set of Aussie Blackwood that was a gift from Bob Connor when he visited last year. This will be the most inexpensive gutiar that I have ever built and regardless it is every bit as fun to build as any previous guitar and it also has every chance of sounding and playing just as well too.

These days I also work in a busy college town repair shop having decided to hang up my hat from corporate American and pursue my dream, doing something that I love, while I am still alive and kicking.

Guitar building has a way of changing you... an understatement... and for me it has become the single source of the greatest happiness that I have every known.

PS: If you can't hide the zoot purchases from the wife maybe going furniture shopping and getting a really, really comfy sofa would be a good idea.... :D Voice of prior experience here....
Author:  Robert Renick [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I think one of the important things is to keep in mind the goal of the hobby. Right now you are in the need of stress relief from a tough day job, ask the question with each purchase and each time you get busy in the shop, is this adding or relieving stress?

I am working on my first builds. I am doing 2 at once, and figure if I really mess one up, I still have the other to finish. I will have about $20 invested in wood for each of these, for many reasons I chose this route. One, I would rather spend the money on tools in the beginning. 2, I bought extra stuff, so when I mess up, grab another cheap stick and try again, no big deal. I think this really frees me from stress, I don't sweat and procrastinate making a cut, I get to it.

I will also be using only domestic material. We grow some good stuff. As far as checking some local cabinet shops, you may be surprised at what you can find. Why? When I get materials for a custom woodworking job, I order so many 100 BF from the supplier, and they deliver. Some times in this delivery there is a really cool figured stick, but it looks nothing like the rest of the wood I am using on the job, so I put it to the side, where it sits and sits because it does not match. I have talked to other cabinet shop guys and they have the same stash. Similarly, if you go to the hardwood supplier and are willing to go through a big stack, you will find some good stuff.

A personal learning philosophy I am taking into this is directly from learning songs on the guitar, I really wanted to learn Freight Train, it took a few weeks of learning very slowly note for note from the tab, then once I could barely play it through, I make sure that I play it at least 10 times a day until it is fluent, or until I can make it through without train wrecks. At 10 times a day it still took a few weeks, or about 200 play throughs until I got it, then I learned the words. So how many build throughs until I build fluently in a performance (sale-able) quality effort? So yeah, I am into affordable wood and getting busy with it.
Wish the best for you to get what you need out of your hobby.
Rob
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I've been using reclaimed woods for years, ever since I started building. I have built several electric guitars from the 80 year old oak planks from the falling down barn in my back yard. You can build great instruments from 'scrap' wood they just won't be traditional or sound traditional. Doesn't mean they are not good though.

Important thing here is have fun :)
Author:  Jim_H [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
There are some neat photo's on this site that show more 'manual' ways of doing difficult things like thicknessing and bending.
http://mysite.verizon.net/nostberg/

I find this very enlightening, and go back and look at it often.. then I go out in the garage and hug my drum sander and binding channel cutter. :p beehive

I build guitars for exactly the same reason you do. Therapy for my weekly grind. My approach however, is slightly different.

I enjoy some tasks more than others, and some tasks I absolutely abhor. I could not fancy myself spending hours trying to thickness a set of rosewood using planes(spruce maybe). What I found was that doing it has a hobby, I wanted to minimize the time I spend doing the tasks that I find unpleasant, and spend more time doing the tasks I enjoy.

I have a love/hate relationship with my power tools. I don't love the noise, or the scary, fast, spinny metal things, but I do love the fact that I can (if I'm very careful and plan well) route some really nice binding channels in a small fraction of the time it would take to cut/chisel them out by hand. :D

I completely respect your approach, and honestly hope it works out well. The end result will be instruments you can be very proud of.

Please
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I don't know who on this site ever said you should buy the best and most expensive tools if u hope to have success in this hobby. I have only recieved the opposite advice (except when it comes to thicknessing and chisels/planes). I wanted a harp guitar... BAD! I now have a nice wood shop, several handmade guitars (including my harp guitar) all for less than a custom hg would have cost me! I think it all depends on personal preferences. This ain't quitting smoking and becoming an evangelist for the benefits of being a non-smoker. It's about following ur dreams, like Hesh mentioned. Do what puts you at peace with your world. That's what I do!
Author:  Corky Long [ Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
Great post.

ALthough I suspect I've got the same dominant gene for unnecessary WAS and TAS like many of us, there's a part of me that gets a real kick out of trying to build the best sounding (and looking) guitar I can from salvaged or very inexpensive materials. (My first guitar back and sides were from a Silver Maple tree that we had to cut down in my back yard)

On that note, you may enjoy the thread at MIMF.com - the $100 challenge. Building a ....(enter musical instrument here) for less than $100 in a set time period. Our own Alan Carruth submitted a really, really elegant and cool harp guitar project that looks like something from Salvador Dali - and built it for under $100. What a cool concept.
Author:  sprouseod [ Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I think there is definitely a "honeymoon period" when you first get into something where you are enamored by all the "stuff" and you buy,buy,buy woods, jigs,etc much of which you don't need. I have enough top, b/s sets to last me a while however now I am much more versed in choosing this materiel than I ever was in the beginning. But, I thin this is an Achilles heel for most all luthiers or woodworkers in general. One thing I do is try to allocate some of this "discretionary income" to workshops and instruction. I can say that was money well spent, way better than any tool or jig. After a while the honeymoon wears off and you realize you have more stuff than you'll ever need, the only thing you can't by is more time to use it.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
Quote:
I think there is definitely a "honeymoon period" when you first get into something where you are enamored by all the "stuff" and you buy,buy,buy woods, jigs,etc much of which you don't need


I can agree with this statement but when does this end. I must admit that after 5 years I am still in that mode, though I have built as many jigs and tools as I have purchased, and so far the only ones not used are the ones I improved on as I found better ways of doing things. As for wood I don't think it ever will end until the cash is gone, I have built 7 guitars and have wood for another 12 or more, I see a nice back/side set or top and I have to have it.

As for power tools, the belt/disk sander, drill press, band saw and thickness drum sander have made the task easier and I would not get rid of any of them.

Fred
Author:  lactose [ Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I think about less use of power tools a lot. One reason is a careless moment I had with my table saw. Fortunately I still have those two fingers and they still work well (half of one is numb now). Another reason is I am preparing to drastically downscale should the depression affect my job, and I want to be able to build stuff even in an apartment if I have to. Here is a blog of a guy who built a guitar in his kitchen (although I think he cheated a little). Some power tools could still be used but nothing making too much noise or dust.

As far as using cheaper materials, I am very interested in that, as I don't currently sell anything and have a lot more freedom in my choices. I constantly look at furniture on the curb on trash day, unfortunately most of it is particle board. I love the guitar Benedetto has in his book, made from "inferior" wood. It has lots of visible knots, yet he says it plays and sounds as good as any other. If I could get one custom built, I would actually request knots !

So I encourage your journey and hope you share your progress.
Author:  Chris Beebe [ Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
Thanks for all the advice and support. I am planning on using Ed's idea about creating a building thread to documement my progress. who knows if I will keep this philosophy on building for long, but I feel that it is something that I have to explore, at least for the time being. Thanks again and I hope to keep you updated on my progress shortly.
Author:  Scotty [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
winterdune wrote:
I'm on my first build and I intend to use only one power tool (drill press). The more stuff you fail to do yourself the more alienated you are from what you are doing. Building a guitar for me is about connecting (with all sorts of things) and for me, sticking jigs, electrical tools and so on in between you and the wood disconnects you from what you are doing. Besides, I don't have the money...
Sean


My brother is an architect, and years ago as a student he was involved with the restoration of an old building on campus. They were using routers and other power tools to make and install some moulding and other trim pieces to replace the rotted original pieces. I pointed out that the original builders did not use power tools. He said, "True, but they WOULD have if they existed back then" Hmmm, he may have been on to something there! 8-)
Author:  spoke [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I guess its the same old story, some people find the reward of building less about the tools and more about the hand work or all the hand work they can squeeze into a build. I am sure this struggle has been going on for some time.

There is no reason anyone should care one way or the other. But there are a few people myself included who love tools. I love making tools, making jigs and using power tools. I like having good tools as well. I also like the quietness of hand planning or carving a neck with a spoke shave as it is about tools.

I am a tool and jig junkie and I'm fine with it; as you should be about giving it up.
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guitar building, A new way of thinking
I like hand tools mostly, but use power tools where appropriate. I don't like the danger, loud noise, and mess of power tools, but some things like routing inlay pockets are just a waste of time trying to do by hand.

I do most of my drilling with a hand drill, although I might use the press for tuner holes to be sure they're straight.

Sawing the top/back/side wood by hand would be a) wasteful, and b) a huge pain. I leave that to the pros with good resaws. Plus I like variety, and I'd end up with bunches of matching sets if I sawed them myself.

Thicknessing plates, I'm going to do with planes.

A power jointer for laminating necks and things... tempting to buy. I'm not particularly good at making large perfectly flat surfaces.

Bindings, purfling, kerfing... probably too much of a pain by hand, but I'll give kerfing a try at least.
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