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protecting a new design http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26478	Page 1 of 1

Author:	greenhorn [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:30 am ]
Post subject:	protecting a new design
hey guys, i just had a thought . say somebody comes up with a new body style of guitar that has never been done before. there is nothing special functionally its just a new looking style. what do they do to protect it from being stolen? is it possible or can any manufacturer use that body style for thier own guitar? any comments are welcome, thanks in advance.

Author:	Mike OMelia [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
download/file.php?id=16269&mode=view You mean like that?

Author:	Christian Schmid [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
Mike O'Melia wrote: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=16269&mode=view You mean like that? It will make me rich

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
There is really no economically feasible way to paten a body shape. Then it is even less economically feasible to try to defend your paten when violated. It is just not worth it. If you build a guitar shape that is desirable It will be copied and really there is nothing you can do about it. be the first to publish and market a plan set and you will get credit for the design. but forget trying to keep the shape 100% exclusive.

Author:	Howard Klepper [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
A unique and non-functional ornament or shape on a functional object (like a guitar) can be protected by a design patent or as "trade dress." Whether seeking this protection is worthwhile is a different question.

Author:	coke_zero [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
I have seen this issue in a few different things outside of the guitar world. Nick Benjamin a great UK builder had this issue with his scoop idea http://www.benjaminguitars.co.uk/cutaways.htm If you can't open the link this is what he says his website: Quote: NOTE TO LUTHIERS AND COMPANIES CONSIDERING USING THE 'BENJAMIN SCOOP' CUTAWAY DESIGN I realise there is no way I can fully protect my design at present so I accept that for the immediate future other individual luthiers may use the design as long as they please attribute it to me and call it the 'Benjamin Scoop'. For companies larger than one person please have the courtesy to use me as a consultant when introducing this design or contact me for a licensing arrangment if you would like to be sole user of this design. This information may change if I do decide to patent the design. I have seen it in my old line of work with tools. How many items do we call by the brand name when we are using a different make? (e.g Stanley knife).

Author:	letseatpaste [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
That's interesting about the Benjamin "scoop" style cutaway, he mentions on his website that the design was put into practice late in 2006. I took a French polishing class with Marshall Brune in summer of 2005 at R.E. Brune's (his dad's) shop and they had a guitar or two with that style cutaway, I think Marshall called it a "bite-away." I don't remember if they claimed it as their design or not.

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
I have seen a (wedged) cutaway way back in the 70's. this is nothing reall new or intavative. It is a good feature and great craftsmanship but not really a new concept.

Author:	TonyKarol [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
I started building one in jan 2007 (order taken in early 2006) ... never heard of this guy or Leeb at the time ... now that its out there .. I doubt he could get a patent anyway .... kind of like my twin neck acoustic travel guitar .. never had seen one or anything like it before I built mine .. but a Swiss maker (met him in Montreal last year) has body that take 4 or 5 necks .. guitar, baritone, mandolin even ... great minds think alike

Author:	SteveCourtright [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
Howard Klepper wrote: A unique and non-functional ornament or shape on a functional object (like a guitar) can be protected by a design patent or as "trade dress." Whether seeking this protection is worthwhile is a different question. Howard is correct on both counts. Preparation and filing of a design patent typically costs less than $1000 (US). Issuing an granted design patent (there is an issue fee) costs less than filing one. Typically there are no other substantial costs unless the design you are trying to patent has been done before. Litigation is another matter entirely (see HK's comment above).

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
And.... this is not intended to diss the OP's design but it's very, very difficult as you can see from many of these posts above to know if what you have is truly new so before even considering a patent, trademark, of begging for attribution.... there is a legitimate question as to how original any guitar related shape, idea, concept, color... is.... The good news is that nothing stops you from building one for yourself regardless of if it's an original idea or not. Typically, not always, people who understand some things about guitar making come to this hobby/craft/business to lose money. And we often see folks new to building who typically, not always.... come to this hobby/craft/business to make money. Which one do you wanna be.... Now that that's out of the way can you spare a dollar until Friday?

Author:	Bailey [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
I have to tell you....unless you create something that tunes itself, sings backup harmonics while someone plays "Roys Blues" ...a patent on your design is probably not worth the time or expense. I'm an artist of 40+ years and have had numerous creations copied by others. In fact, one person took a picture and copied a relief carving panel I did and won 1st. prize at the Arizona State fair (original artwork only). Artists work are copied all the time....and most artists are influenced by others...so the similarities in work are numerous. Guitars are the same. We are all influenced by others before us...which then makes for endless variations of a original design form. Best thing....if you are worried about someone (A COMPANY) mass producing something you did, go ahead and spend the money and document dates and design. By the time you get that done...you'll have a new design and you can start all over again. I'm old enough now...that I'm honored to see someone copy my work. Kent

Author:	greenhorn [ Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
thanks for the replies guys. i was just wondering because im going to be making an electric guitar that is similar to the PRS style carve. i was doing some research online and found an article about Gibson suing PRS and PRS winning. it got me wondering how the heck anybody could ever protect thier own design. now i dont have any revolutionary design but i wish i did.....not that it would matter because apparently anyone could use it.

Author:	greenhorn [ Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
well, here it is. Someone else beat me to it . The building process anyway. Dont know if he beat me to the idea though as he posted this build months after I imagined mine. I was deceptive in my posts (said PRS style carve and not revolutionary (which BTW I thought it was )) because I didnt want anyone to be able to figure out my Les Paul/Violin idea. Oh Well. My idea is slightly different as far as the basic body shape goes but not much. This guys is more elegant than mine will be too, he's an amazing craftsman. I was just going to use standard Les Paul hardware and control layout with no F holes. He also has a tele version in the works too . Figured I'd show you guys a cool guitar.

Author:	DennisK [ Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
Very cool! Reminds me of this one John How was working on a few months ago http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2262119#post2262119 Attachment: FPV1.jpg I may have to pester him for permission to make one like it sometime... And I wouldn't worry about getting "beat to the punch" there. I would bet a large amount of money that many violin shaped electrics have been built before that guy's. Archtop guitars are pretty much based on violin family instruments anyway. Just get yours finished and enjoy it

Author:	Josh H [ Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
That guitar kind of looks similar to the style being built by builder Wolf Moehrle. http://www.wolfmoehrle.com/guitars.html Josh

Author:	cphanna [ Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
My advice on this issue: If you are truly interested in protecting your design, don't ask a bunch of luthiers how to do it. Ask a patent/copyright lawyer. It goes without saying that the advice will cost you some bucks. Furthermore, actually perfecting your copyright will cost you more bucks. It's a hard truth, but it's pretty much that simple. If you don't want to pay the related fees, then you will have to reconcile yourself to other people copying your design--some worse, and perhaps some better. It is pretty much just as simple as that. Sorry to be so blunt, but I make my profession in visual art (designs for clients, and my own paintings, etc.) I have been struggling with this issue for decades. I assure you, it's just as simple as I have outlined it.

Author:	Ti-Roux [ Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
I know a luthier who's a patent agent. This guy developped a lot of things, and don't even patent them himself... It just don't worth it.

Author:	theguitarwhisperer [ Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: protecting a new design
I was gonna make one of those, never got around to it. I was inspired by the Hoffman violin basses, and thought it'd be cool to make a guitar like that, and make it look more like a vioin than a Hoffman does.

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