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Givin' 'em away.....
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26295		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  mhammond [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Givin' 'em away.....
The current post about doing the show circuit has brought up several thoughts that I've been wondering about. I recently put 4 instruments on the wall in the local "nice" music store. The store has been very nice to me, very supportive.
The first day they were on display one of the guitar teachers, one of their most popular and busy instructors contacted me. He had "fallen in love" with one of my guitars. He said he wanted to cut an endorsement deal with me, that he could sell them for me. Of course he has no money :roll:
He has been a professional touring musician in years past (now married with small children) and has also worked in the store as a salesman. He will be on T.V. next month behind a local girl who is starting to make a name for herself, they will be on one of the country western cable channels. He plays all over town and will be playing in several big local events around town.
I like this guy, he seems to have his stuff together.
Do I give him a guitar?
Author:  Parser [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
I might cut him a deal, but I wouldn't give him one.
Author:  jackwilliams [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
I'd say no to outright giving him a guitar; perhaps you might provide him with one of your guitars in his teaching studio which could result in sales for you; if sales did result, you could pay him a fee, although that could set up a conflict of interest between you and the store.

regards,
jack
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
It has to be about the intent when giving something (anything) away. Meaning, does it matter to you what the recipient does with the gift? What if he choses to sell it to put the $$$ in his own pocket? Does that matter to you?

So, is this about getting your guitar "out there" or the fact that you like the guy and he could use a good guitar? Or both (I suspect from the sounds of it)?

Currently I'm about "giving them away" to my close friends and family and I charge "cost". this does two things for me. It keeps me building, and it gets my guitars "out there" into hands of people who will use them as well as a few who will help promote them. As time goes by, my "chops" get better and at some point in time I'll be confident (pretty much there) to sell for market value.

So, what's the purpose of "givin' em away....."? Maybe you can work out a deal with the guy where he pays you something for it (cost maybe) and maybe for every guitar he's responsible for "selling" you give him back a commision....there are ways to make it work so that our guitars get out there, just need to be creative....

Good luck.
Author:  P@uL [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
tell him he can play it on tv for now and once he sells the other 3 guitars for you he can buy that one at a discount :D
Author:  DennisK [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
If you want to partner with him, then he'll be getting a bit of the cash, so he can use that to buy the guitar if he loves it that much :)
But yeah, I'd take it out of the store and give him a good deal on it when he has the money (and maybe let him play it occasionally in the meantime). But don't give it away. He obviously sees you as untapped profit, and while having some star power behind your advertising (and not having to do the actual work yourself) can certainly be good for both of you, the fact is you're the one producing the goods, so he needs you more than you need him. No need to take unnecessary risks by "investing" a guitar in the deal.
Author:  Blain [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
If you give him one, then why not give me one too?

See what I mean? This is probably what you'll run into when word hits the street that you're giving away free guitars.

Make him pay something for it and it will be woth that much more to him.
Author:  Nick Oliver [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
One of my Selmer style's was made specifically for one of New Zealand's (where I live) most well known Jazz player's, he also teaches at the local Jazz school, so my exposure factor to other jazz players and muso's is high. I'm fairly new to the Acoustic market so the deal was I said I would make it for cost if he "spread the word". Guitar was built & he was really pleased with it and appreciated the work that went into it, ended up he payed me more than I had originally asked. I was lucky, I know, because he not only tells other players but his audience too about 'his' guitar!
I'm about to make another guitar along the same deal lines, a friend I've known for a few years is in a band that is just starting to get serious radio air play and he's also been around the local music scene so personally knows alot of this countries well known rock/pop muso's. I'm hoping this exposure will generate other sales so am prepared to build for just the cost of materials because I know he will push my work.
If your guy has the posibility of generating work for you then Rod's idea sounds like a good one, i.e offer to sell it to him at cost then offer a commission on future sales that way you know he will do his best to push your work if he can see a way of getting some of his money back. As for the TV exposure (and I'm not trying to sound horrible here) don't get too carried away at the thought of it, it sounds good but unless the guitar that has a standout feature like "outstanding" tone or an odd shaped headstock ;) then most people will just see a guy playing a guitar and think no more of it, been there, done that.
At first flush it sounds to me like he's just after getting himself a free guitar & is clever enough to play on your "unknown builder" status to achieve this. Just because you have this rep there's no need to go on an advertising drive & give guitars away like free hats.
Author:  jeb98 [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
+1 on what Nick Oliver said.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
I'll share my thoughts......but I'm not a professional so take it with a grain of salt.

The earlier point about conflict of interest between selling your guitars and the store guitars would concern me. How many sales will actually come in?

I'm of the opinion tha the will place more value on it if he has more invested. I would ask about a "loan to own" program. Loan it to him with the understanding that he either pays $X for the guitar, or returns it on a specific date (that can be flexible on your side but not his). Tell him for every sale he brings to you will be worth 1/3 or 1/4 (or whatever you feel is fair) the sale price. Then if he brings you 3 or 4 sales, he owes you nothing.......or gets the guitar at half price if he brings you 2 sales.....etc, etc.

And you have the option of being flexible......so if he has brought you 2 sales but has another 1 or 2 likely, you can always extend the date. This protects you, helps him, gets your product "out there" and doesn't let him take advantage of you by getting a free guitar and a year or two later making $3K off it (and taking away a potential sale from you). If he really likes and wants this guitar, seems this would be a good deal for him.
Author:  ChuckB [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
I would definitely not give it to him.

Since you really seem to like this fellow, if he really does have alot of connections other than the one time TV event, I would sell it to him at cost of materials + at least $500.00. Pick an amount to add that you will be OK with if he decides to stop instructing or perhaps moves out ot town or sell the guitar. I would not sell it to him for cost of materials because this is information that he does not need to know, especially if he is going to sell other guitars for you (some of these potential clients may be his friends).

Now if he was a famous performer, then I'd probably give it to him provided he or she played it a few times at major events.

Chuck
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
I didn't read any of the other posts yet so forgive me please if I am redundant....

My suggestion for you is to do a deal with this guy that if the world ended tomorrow.... you would not be all that unhappy with the deal that you did. And... structure the deal so that your client has skin in the game.

I would not do a flat out guitar for future endorsement deal with someone who is not nationally or internationally known.

So that leaves something like this: 50% off price for an endorsement deal where as I understand it this guy has no money, currently, so finance him on the 50% and provide him with the opportunity to knock money off his balance due you each time one of his endorsements leads to the sales AND payment in full of one of your guitars. I also would recommend getting a down payment too even if this is nearly a deal breaker - skin in the game is important....

So write up a contract and have him sign it charging him 50% of the retail price for one of your guitars. Show the balance due and the down payment on the contract. Indicate that for every endorsement that he provides that leads to the sale and payment in full of one of your instruments you will knock 10% of the price of that instrument off his bill. Indicate further that his endorsement fees credited by you toward his balance cannot exceed his balance so if he owes you $1,500 the most he can make that is applied toward his balance is $1,500 for the sales of other guitars where he brings you the business and it is paid in full.

I would further indicate that there is an expectation that the balance due for his own guitar remains due and he must make payments toward reducing this balance at some rate, perhaps over 24 months. This way if he makes no endorsements or the folks who he recommends your guitars to don't purchase them he is still liable to pay you cash for the price that you charged him for the guitar.

Lots of folks want to do these deals but the trick is to be fair to all and that includes yourself too is to make sure that everyone has skin in the game - not just you. Be mindful too that before he earns the credit toward his own bill the acceptance period for the new clients has to have expired AND again you were paid in full and the payment has fully cleared what ever it had to clear...
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
The only other exception I might make is to send one out on "Long term Loan" if you feel that he could give you useful feedback that would further the craft.... with the understanding that it is not *HIS* instrument, but rather that you are loaning it out for extended evaluation.... Sometimes, you can get really useful feedback from these sorts of arrangements.... but a lot of it depends on the player... not just whether they are good, but that they can give you useful feedback regarding things other than the neck shape and action... Many can't put those sorts of things into words....

I do think it is worthwhile to make sure that he has "Skin in the game" though... I know a Luthier who put a "Free" guitar in the hands of a local up and coming artist close to where he lived... only to get a call from a Pawn Shop 6 months later wanting information about the instrument... She had pawned it soon after receiving it...

As you might imagine, it kinda left a bad taste in the fellow's mouth...

If you give it away, be prepared for this sort of thing...

Thanks

John
Author:  djohnso7 [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
Quote:
I would not do a flat out guitar for future endorsement deal with someone who is not nationally or internationally known.


I would only give an instrument to a close friend or relative. How would you feel if you gave a guitar to the "nationally known" Garth Brooks only to see is smashed on stage at his next concert? Or when Kyle Busch smashed the one of a kind Les Paul so his fans could take home souvenir splinters? Do you think the folks at the Gibson Custom shop liked seeing there work treated like that? I suspect a lot of the endorsement guitars are accepted by the celebrity in front of the cameras then quickly passed on to one of their friends.

Most people don't know the difference between cost and value. If this guy get it free, then it has no value. If he pays, he will appreciate your work. Keep in mind, Martin & Gibson build tens of thousands of guitars every year. When they give away guitars it's a promotion to be written off on their taxes. For a one man shop it's giving away a large chunk of your income.

Why don't you talk to the store owner about this? If the musician really want this guitar, them maybe you could lower the price (a little), the store owner could give this guy an employee discount and everybody is happy.
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
If he can, and is a guy that really will show the guitar to lots of potential clients. Then I would make him a GREAT deal just like others have said. Dont give it out for free !! cost + a little extra will make both you and him feel great ! say it cost you 500 to build it then sell it to him for 8-1200. And let him know that he should not let others know the deal he got from you. Things that are for free are often treated in the same way. - (well, it was for free anyway, so I wont care if it gets busted or not) etc.

Lars
Author:  Jon L. Nixon [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
Human Nature 101-
People tend not to appreciate and care for things are obtained at no cost ....
JMO
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
Jon L. Nixon wrote:
Human Nature 101-
People tend not to appreciate and care for things are obtained at no cost ....
JMO


BINGO!!! Easy come easy go...

Regarding giving a guitar to Garth Brooks I wouldn't give a gutiar to Garth Brooks so that solves that..... :D I also would not give a guitar to anyone, even Jimi if I did not have the opportunity to appropriately impart to Jimi the value that I believe that the guitar represents AND receive some kind of feedback from Jimi that he understood me. This is tough to do because not only is Jimi not writing tunes anymore he is decomposing.....

As builders we set the stage for the message of what level of value we believe that we offer. Act as if it's no big shake for you to part with a guitar and expect it to be valued at the same level or less by the recipient.....
Author:  enalnitram [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
I'm sure your friend would agree that $1000-$1200 is not a lot to pay for a guitar that he's in love with, and that the materials cost you something, and also that your time is valuable.

Let the fact that you like the guy, be your reason for selling it to him for $1200, and not $2000. Definitely don't sell yourself short.

If he brings in sales, bonus. But if you're good, that'll happen anyway.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
If he is a renowned teacher, will the mention of his name on your website bring in perspective clients? If not then sell him a guitar at a reasonable discount (10-20% max) and you may get one or two leads from him. But the sound of the situation is not one that would lead me towards a guitar for an endorsement.

I can tell you first hand the music store will push the brands they have to buy from their distributors. They have to; to sell their quota requirements. So the fact that a teacher their plays your guitar will mean very little at all because the store he works for needs him to help sell there wears.

Stay away from consignment situations till you can afford to loose instruments due to the consignment handler going out of business and bankrupt. The courts will hold the instrument as collateral against the business outstanding debt. Don’t ask how I know this.
Author:  Rick Davis [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
Since I'm now the official anti-business romantic on the Forum, I'll tell you how I've learned to deal with music professionals, both teachers and players. Promoting you isn't their main thing and if you give whopping discounts or freebies, you have to consider it a gift rather than a business arrangement. If that's OK with you, then go for it. But for everyone else, I sell the instrument at full price and offer to buy any promotional help they give -- I think this is what Hesh means by "having skin in the game." If they carry and give out my cards, that's worth something to me. If they send me a good studio or performance photo, that's valuable too. If they mention my guitars on their album notes, that's helpful. And so I cut a check and send it with my sincere thanks. If they just use the guitar and enjoy it, well, yay! and thanks but I don't pay or discount for their good taste.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
If you have a web site and if the teacher is willing to write and very favorable endorsement then that can help but li9ke I said don't expect a teacher that is paid by a music store to push your work. 99% of teachers that are paid by or officce at a given music store are also expected to sell in their not booked time slots. and they must push the instruments that the music store offers. Just a fact of life.

As far as nationally known player endorsments are concered. A written review is good but unless there is somthing inwritting that perspective clients will see when viewing your web site, rarely is the fact that they play your instrument going to noticed by the general buying public.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
Michael Dale Payne wrote:
As far as nationally known player endorsments are concered. A written review is good but unless there is somthing inwritting that perspective clients will see when viewing your web site, rarely is the fact that they play your instrument going to noticed by the general buying public.


At times I've tried to see what players are using on TV......and they rarely give a camera shot where you can tell. And if you didn't already know the logo, I doubt you would know even if they give a good camera shot as they don't give a close-up of the logo so it's still a blur.

Bottom line is if anyone (teacher included) loves your guitar, they will likely find a way to buy it. Which would impress a student/potential client more.......that he was given a guitar........or that a guitar was so great he spent $X thousand on it? Their thought: wow, that is a nice guitar!
Author:  jsimpson [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Givin' 'em away.....
You're free to use my "Buy ten, get one free" concept!

:D
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