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Flamenco scale length- 650 or 660mm? Cedar or spruce top?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26169		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Flamenco scale length- 650 or 660mm? Cedar or spruce top?
I'm thinking about building a flamenco (spruce or cedar + yellow cedar aka Alaskan cypress b+s) from the Bill Lewis (Barbero?) plans.

Lewis specifies 660mm; I notice that most makers seem to be using 650mm nowadays.

Should I use Lutz or WRC (cedar) for the soundboard?
I need some advice!
Thanks in advance.

Cheers
John
Author:  MaxBishop [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Flamenco scale length- 650 or 660mm? Cedar or spruce top?
Hi John,

I have made all my guitars with 650 mm scale and have been very happy with that. But that is just my preference. I think it is up to your personal preference. Most of my friends who play flamenco have 650 mm instruments. Manuel Reyes guitars are 655 mm as far as I know and Jose Ramirez has gone as high as 670+ mm. I think 650 mm provides excellent playability and good volume.

Good luck,
Max
Author:  MaxBishop [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Flamenco scale length- 650 or 660mm? Cedar or spruce top?
Sorry, I didn't respond to the cedar vs. spruce part. I like spruce for its brightness. However, there are plenty of flamencas with cedar tops out there. Cedar is darker tonally but louder initially. Spruce will usually continue to improve with age, while cedar - not so much. These are generalizations, of course. Once again, it's what you like.

Max
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Flamenco scale length- 650 or 660mm? Cedar or spruce top?
John;
It depends on what style(period) of "Flamenco" guitar you want to build.
If it's a early (Torres) with a small body you may want to use a 640mm scale .
So the guitar will have a great visual balance.
I use 650 +3 mm for compensation.
3mm is not needed on all strings but i use a 3mm saddle so I can get the intonation as good as I can.
The Barbero plans from R.E.Brune' -a 1951 are just great .
Available from http://www.luth.org
I've made many guitars with these plans-tweeking some parts as I see needed.
These guitars just sing!!
I would stay with a spruce top-LUTZ or a good Euro one.
Cedar is more prone to cracking & letting loose a brace when a Golpe and other tapping(drumming) is used on the top.
I've been working with the Flamenco guitarist Maria Zemantauski(www.mariazemantauski.com) & we have developed a great Flamenco guitar using the Barbero plans with some up to date touches.


My 2 cents.
Mc
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Flamenco scale length- 650 or 660mm? Cedar or spruce top?
Thanks, Max.

Mike Collins wrote:
The Barbero plans from R.E.Brune' -a 1951 are just great .
Available from http://www.luth.org
I've made many guitars with these plans-tweeking some parts as I see needed.
These guitars just sing!!


Mike-
Thanks for the quick reply. I'll order those plans from GAL on Monday.
I do have the reduced plans in the BigRedBook article, which are legible and will do in the interim.
From your copy of the plans, can you please pull the measurements for body length, upper and lower bout and waist and post them here or send me a pm? I want to check that the planilla in the Lewis plans is the same as the one in the Brune drawing of the 1951 Barbero.

The Lewis plans are based on an earlier Barbero (1943)-
BodyLength-490mm, Waist-240mm, UB-285mm, LB-373mm
Thanks

John
Author:  Colin S [ Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Flamenco scale length- 650 or 660mm? Cedar or spruce top?
I don't know of many makers over this side that use anything other than a Euro spruce top (lutz would be a good alternative) and a 650mm scale for their flamenco guitars.

However, one thing that hasn't been mentioned also comes into the equation, the player, who is the guitar for? I ask this as we generally just thow out 650mm as the scale length for 'classical' and flamenco guitars, though this may not always be the best size for an individual player, and we are making custom guitars. I have recently made a Cypress guitar for a high end female player (RCM trained, pupil of John Williams) who uses a 640mm scale guitar. A good guide is if the span of the outstetched little finger to thumb is much less that 9" then playability may be better with a 640mm scale as against a 650mm, certainly if it dips below 8", then a 650mm is too large. There may be a span at the top end that would dictate a 660mm scale, but I don't make guitars for basket ball players!

An interesting (at least to me) thing about flamenco guitars is of course that they were never specifically designed for flamenco, it was economics that dictated the make up of the flamenco guitar. In the 19th century, say at the time of Torres, there was no such thing as 'classical' guitars or flamenco guitars, just guitars. The less heavily built cheaper guitars made from local cypress wood were the only ones the gypsy players could afford so it was that which created the flamenco sound. Bit like the cheap store bought guitars of the 20s gave us the 'authentic' sound of the Delta.

Colin
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Flamenco scale length- 650 or 660mm? Cedar or spruce top?
Thanks, Colin-
Good 'rule of thumb' so to speak. I'll keep that for reference.

This is just a hobbyist guitar, and I don't play flamenco at all, so it is just 'to see what it sounds like' sort of thing.
Trying to widen my building horizons a bit, though it's not really 'fair' to the instruments not to have them in the hands of good players, I know. ;)
I do have a pretty good collection of wood here, so there are some options available. I've read (Eugene Clark in recent GAL magazine, and elsewhere) that perhaps less-than-ultimate stiffness (esp across grain) is probably better in top selection for flamenco guitar (or should I be saying 'una flamenca' ??), so I'll dig through the woodpile and see what I find.

Cheers
John
Author:  Bailey [ Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Flamenco scale length- 650 or 660mm? Cedar or spruce top?
scale length is truly a preference of each individuals hands. A 650 is standard because it is the size created in production that fits most potential buyers. However, I have a 630 640 650 and 660 and each one makes playing certain pieces easier than the other. A smaller hand usually will be suited better to a 640...but it is not the norm at a store purchase unless you are buying a youth model. Actually... people adapt to whatever they have to play. I played my 660 for 15 years before I tried a 640 and then put the 660 away in the closet.
I have large hands...with poor flexibility and a 640 or 650 is a good choice....even for a woodcarvers mitts.
Kent
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