Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question

This material seems EXTREEEMLY Brittle . I can with very little effort break it . Flexing it slightly you can hear it cracking

I believe most people only use figured Redwood like that for double tops. I'm talking acoustic guitars here, but I'm guessing it would apply to any stringed instrument. I don't do double tops, and I won't use wood like that.

I agree with Woody- I wouldn't use stuff like that in one of my instruments.

If you want 'the look', then one solution might be to flood it with CA (ie turn it into plastic), thickness it down to veneer and then laminate it to some decent top wood.

The F-holes indicate this is an archtop-style project? If you want the 'carved look' you will probably have to laminate over a form, which complicates matters.

Cheers
John

I and many others have built several non-double tops out of figured redwwood with great sucsess. Now you said it was very dry but gave no real indication of its moisture content to judge by. I like around 8%. the tops I have built out of curly redwood have averaged between .115-.120 thick. Redwood is a fragle wood as far a dinging and chipping out. I never tried flooding a top of any kind with CA. I would expect it to cause some dampening.

Michael Dale Payne wrote:

I have extech Moisture meter and it doesnt even show 1% on meter [headinwall]

The comments here are accurately telling you that this is not a suitable wood for a solid top guitar soundboard. If you choose to flood it with an enormous quantity of CA that will be an interesting experiment, and I would like to know the outcome. My opinion is that you should do this only if you are willing to accept the possibility that the top will self destruct, and will have to be replaced.

Let us know what happens

I would not recomend what you suggest. I would epoxy it to the most stiff adi or lutz top I could get my hands on. Then you could thickness it to the stiffness you desire. I made a baritone like that and it worked out great.

Now you say you got 6 pieces , you've used one on that coffin, that leaves 5, and your not sure on how to use them....well dude, keep one , send the remaining 4 to me. I'll do all the appropriate testing, experimental building and in due course and timely fashion, get back to you with the results so you don't waist all that time and energy trying to figure them out. That way you won't rune the last top. Hows that sound.

Author:	WudWerkr [ Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:	To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
I am Experimenting with Redwood top I Have . It is verrrrrrrryy dry. I wondered if after I wet it down and bent it to fit my arched bracing and glued it to the box. This material seems EXTREEEMLY Brittle . I can with very little effort break it . Flexing it slightly you can hear it cracking What would happen if after it dried back out signifficantly , I flooded the top with super glue , let it dry and sanded it to finish . I have 6 sets and dont want to waste them . Does My idea have any merit ? Is there another Idea I can try ? Attachment: 100_0592.jpg

Author:	woody b [ Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
I believe most people only use figured Redwood like that for double tops. I'm talking acoustic guitars here, but I'm guessing it would apply to any stringed instrument. I don't do double tops, and I won't use wood like that.

Author:	JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
WudWerkr wrote: This material seems EXTREEEMLY Brittle . I can with very little effort break it . Flexing it slightly you can hear it cracking I agree with Woody- I wouldn't use stuff like that in one of my instruments. If you want 'the look', then one solution might be to flood it with CA (ie turn it into plastic), thickness it down to veneer and then laminate it to some decent top wood. The F-holes indicate this is an archtop-style project? If you want the 'carved look' you will probably have to laminate over a form, which complicates matters. Cheers John

Author:	WudWerkr [ Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
woody b wrote: I believe most people only use figured Redwood like that for double tops. I'm talking acoustic guitars here, but I'm guessing it would apply to any stringed instrument. I don't do double tops, and I won't use wood like that. Appreciate the comment , doesnt really answer my question though Quote: I agree with Woody- I wouldn't use stuff like that in one of my instruments. If you want 'the look', then one solution might be to flood it with CA (ie turn it into plastic), thickness it down to veneer and then laminate it to some decent top wood. The F-holes indicate this is an archtop-style project? If you want the 'carved look' you will probably have to laminate over a form, which complicates matters. Cheers John Thats kinda why im experimenting here with this basic box design . I have two cherry mando's i want to build in future and was hoping I could use the redwood for the tops .

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
I and many others have built several non-double tops out of figured redwwood with great sucsess. Now you said it was very dry but gave no real indication of its moisture content to judge by. I like around 8%. the tops I have built out of curly redwood have averaged between .115-.120 thick. Redwood is a fragle wood as far a dinging and chipping out. I never tried flooding a top of any kind with CA. I would expect it to cause some dampening.

Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26080	Page 1 of 1

Author:	SteveG [ Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
I think your estimation of the situation is flawed. I think you are missing something or misinterpreting what's going on. Wood can be extremely dry without having the properties that you're experiencing. It's possible but really unlikely that the surface is dry but the interior has more moisture. This would cause the surface cells to be "smaller" than the interior cells, creating stresses. In such a thin piece, under normal handling, this is most likely not the case. It could be that the wood was kiln dried using too much steam, and is suffering from "case hardening", a situation sort of like what I described above. The outer layers in a case hardened board are compressed while the inner layers are in tension. I doubt if the wood is kiln-dried, though, because you'd be unlikely to use it in an instrument. It could be that the wood has started to break down, being stored somewhere along the line improperly. This could be as a log, or maybe that piece comes from a stump or a tree that was standing dead. Maybe it was dried wrong and it started to break down. Or it could be a crap piece of wood, pretty, but with lots of runout, or lots of internal stresses. It has large growth rings and curl, so it probably has internal stresses that you're relieving by flexing past the point of failure. You probably know this ( I'm guessing because of your chosen forum name), but not all pretty wood is suitable for what you'd hoped to use it for.

Author:	WudWerkr [ Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
Michael Dale Payne wrote: I and many others have built several non-double tops out of figured redwwood with great sucsess. Now you said it was very dry but gave no real indication of its moisture content to judge by. I like around 8%. the tops I have built out of curly redwood have averaged between .115-.120 thick. Redwood is a fragle wood as far a dinging and chipping out. I never tried flooding a top of any kind with CA. I would expect it to cause some dampening. I have extech Moisture meter and it doesnt even show 1% on meter

Author:	Brook Moore [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
I appreciate that the wood is beautiful and that you have a lot of it. However it is obvious from looking at the photo that the curl "angle" is extremely steep. Essentially every dark area of the curl is an end grain area, providing very little structural strength. This sort of redwood can easily fracture across the grain with very little load, as you are already seeing. I doubt if it will take 10 pounds of load, much less the pull of 6 strings. The dryness is not a major factor in causing the weakness in this piece. The comments here are accurately telling you that this is not a suitable wood for a solid top guitar soundboard. If you choose to flood it with an enormous quantity of CA that will be an interesting experiment, and I would like to know the outcome. My opinion is that you should do this only if you are willing to accept the possibility that the top will self destruct, and will have to be replaced. It is definitely not suitable for a real doubletop, as it is critical that the skins are structurally sound. However, as another has commented, it could be laminated to a solid (or near solid) core layer of cedar or spruce. I would keep the redwood very thin and have the core material thick enough to provide the necessary strength. Opinions will vary as to the quality of the resulting soundboard. Good luck!

Author:	WudWerkr [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
Quote: The comments here are accurately telling you that this is not a suitable wood for a solid top guitar soundboard. If you choose to flood it with an enormous quantity of CA that will be an interesting experiment, and I would like to know the outcome. My opinion is that you should do this only if you are willing to accept the possibility that the top will self destruct, and will have to be replaced. Well it is an experiment. So I gonna give it a whirl . And if she crashes , she crashes . Kinda Like an experimental airplane . We may be going down in flames ! " straps on Goggles and helmet and floods away "

Author:	Dave Rickard [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
Let us know what happens

Author:	WudWerkr [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
Dave Rickard wrote: Let us know what happens Keep Looking at the horizon , Ya Might be able to see the smoke from the crash

Author:	Steve Saville [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
I would not recomend what you suggest. I would epoxy it to the most stiff adi or lutz top I could get my hands on. Then you could thickness it to the stiffness you desire. I made a baritone like that and it worked out great.

Author:	Brook Moore [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
wudwerkr, Your good humor is a definite plus in proceeding on with this experiment. Since you have more sets of this wood, I suggest that you experiment with another piece before you invest much more time in the current top: surface one of the other pieces to your desired thickness, saturate it with the CA, and then (hours later) give it a good strong flexing in the long direction. If it compares in stiffness to a decent piece of spruce, and does not crack, then you will at least have some indication that it may be worth continuing. Oh, and do NOT give it a strong flex ACROSS the grain, as even straight-grained redwood does not like that!

Author:	the Padma [ Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
Yo, Wud if you flooded them with super glue , you wood have wud thats been flooded with supper glue...simple eh. Now you say you got 6 pieces , you've used one on that coffin, that leaves 5, and your not sure on how to use them....well dude, keep one , send the remaining 4 to me. I'll do all the appropriate testing, experimental building and in due course and timely fashion, get back to you with the results so you don't waist all that time and energy trying to figure them out. That way you won't rune the last top. Hows that sound. peace and carrots, Padma

Page 1 of 1	All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	WudWerkr [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: To Glue or NOT to Glue , That is the Question
Steve Saville wrote: I would not recomend what you suggest. I would epoxy it to the most stiff adi or lutz top I could get my hands on. Then you could thickness it to the stiffness you desire. I made a baritone like that and it worked out great. I have considered that option as well and wil be going that route if this fails . I am sure they are salvagable , and are beautiful finished . Quote: Now you say you got 6 pieces , you've used one on that coffin, that leaves 5, and your not sure on how to use them....well dude, keep one , send the remaining 4 to me. I'll do all the appropriate testing, experimental building and in due course and timely fashion, get back to you with the results so you don't waist all that time and energy trying to figure them out. That way you won't rune the last top. Hows that sound. You make a sound suggestion , I believe that the results would be quite beautifull , well thought out and well educational . Therefore for a small contribution of the monitary kind I would be glad to send you this high quality wood to experimant to ur hearts content .