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Bridge pin fit
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=26061		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  AJ Smith [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Bridge pin fit
I am looking for some advice on the fit of the bridge pins on my first steel string!! So far I have the bridge glued in place and the holes drilled and tapered so that my 3 degree slotted bridge pins fit tightly into the holes. The problem I have is when I put the string into the hole the pins no longer fit, they seat only about 1/3 into the hole. It seems like the wrap on the string is too thick for the bridge pin slot. So, not sure if I should try to file a larger slot into the pins or ream out a larger bridge pin hole to accommodate both the strings and pins. If I decide to file larger slots it seems that I will have to take a large majority of material from the pins (especially the low E string) and end with weak pins. On the other hand if I ream the hole larger the pins will no longer fit snuggly into the holes without the strings which doesn't seem to be the case from reading other threads. I should also mention that I have not filed a slot onto the bridge to allow clearance as the string comes over the saddle and into the hole, will this help allow more space for the string and pin to fit into the hole?? Thanks in advance for the advice!!
Author:  Colin North [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
Can I ask, do you have any slot in the bridge itself?
I make a slot in my bridge (as well as the pins) for each string and ramp the bridge slot to give a decent break angle to the saddle.
Basically, half the hole to accommodate the string is in the pin, and the other half is in the bridge. About half way up the bridge slot I start to curve the slot deeper into the bridge towards the saddle so it meets the saddle at an angle of about 45 degrees before crossing the saddle. I use a dremel with cylindrical diamond bit for this (can be tricky to keep aligned), but slotting saws are available from stewmac for instance, one of the forum sponsors.
Sorry, I haven't can't draw and upload - one picture worth a thousand mumbles and all that.
Hope this helps, and I am sure someone more experienced on the forum will pitch in with a better explanation.
I would hesitate to make slots in pins much bigger or alter the taper of the holes at all.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
Some foks prefer slotting the bridge instead of the pins. I've read where many prefer this as the ball on the end of the string has more solid contact with the bridge plate and possibly less pressure on the pins. You could use a fine tooth jigsaw blade and cut the slots by hand. When you get the slots at the correct depth, you can turn the slot in the pins away from the string so the pin holds the string in the bridge slot.
Author:  Mike Lindstrom [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
I too slot the bridge. It's how I was taught, and someone here (Mario?) had a good explanation of bridge plate wear and such that convinced me to keep doing it that way.

But I just got to thinking. Why not put a good set of slots in the bridge and skip the pins altogether? Once tensioned, the strings aren't going anywhere. And I understand, at least some people really try to minimize the weight there. Leaving out the pins would save weight.

Mike
Author:  AJ Smith [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
Colin North wrote:
Can I ask, do you have any slot in the bridge itself?


No, I haven't slotted the bridge. So, if I understand this, you cut a slot in the bridge and down the pin hole to the depth of each string width? I figured I would cut a slot for the string in the bridge but just so the string isn't resting on the edge of the pin hole, but your saying the slot should run down the entire length of the pin hole? If this is correct I can see how it would allow room for both the pin and the string without deepening the slot in the pin or reaming the hole larger.
Author:  Rvsgtr [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
Check out Bryan Kimsey's site at www.bryankimsey.com I believe. He has a great tutorial on bridge slotting. I do this on all my guitars.

SR
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
I have found lately, that some of the pins I purchased are smaller in diameter than I'm used to. If you go for a nice snug pin fit, the knob on the string won't fit through the hole. As you say, it binds up about 2/3 of the way in.
Slotting the bridge helps, but it doesn't always do the whole job. If you countersink the pin holes so the pins go in further you can ream the hole a little bigger.
I countersink deep enough that the little shoulder on the pin is about flush with the top of the bridge. If your bridge is thicker than normal, it will make the problem worse & you'll need to countersink deeper.
If you are using a countersink with cutting edges rather than a rotary file or burr, make sure you countersink before you cut your slots. The bridge can chip badly if you cut the slots first & then try to countersink the holes.
Author:  MRS [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
Mike Lindstrom wrote:
I too slot the bridge. It's how I was taught, and someone here (Mario?) had a good explanation of bridge plate wear and such that convinced me to keep doing it that way.

But I just got to thinking. Why not put a good set of slots in the bridge and skip the pins altogether? Once tensioned, the strings aren't going anywhere. And I understand, at least some people really try to minimize the weight there. Leaving out the pins would save weight.

Mike

Trust they will slip without any bridge pins. The treble strings do have the ability to stay put after tuning without bridge pins but the wound strings don't stay to well. Minimizing weight at the bridge is not a big concern with the average sized bridge. Pins don't way that much.
Author:  Colin North [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
AJ Smith wrote:
Colin North wrote:
Can I ask, do you have any slot in the bridge itself?


No, I haven't slotted the bridge. So, if I understand this, you cut a slot in the bridge and down the pin hole to the depth of each string width? I figured I would cut a slot for the string in the bridge but just so the string isn't resting on the edge of the pin hole, but your saying the slot should run down the entire length of the pin hole? If this is correct I can see how it would allow room for both the pin and the string without deepening the slot in the pin or reaming the hole larger.


That is correct. This allows for the string windings at the ball end. Half the windings/string sit in the pin, half in the bridge, ball tucks under the bridge plate.

Look at the site in the reply below, http://www.bryankimsey.com/

Than click on the Lutherie link, and under Reference section you wil see slotting bridges which gives a good explanation with pictures. Also these pictures show the ramping giving the break angle I talked about, which is important to the sound of the guitar.

I also do the same thing as he does when fitting strings. Put the ball end only 2/3 of the way into the hole and push ito place with the pin, holding the string so the ball end seats under the bridge plate.

I hope this helps
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
Non-slotted bridge pins...the only way to go. Start this good habit on your first and you'll never do it any other way.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
Attachment:
DSCN3220.jpg


The above presentation was done by David Collins and is probably what some of you are referring to from past posts here on the OLF. You should be able to blow this up until you can read it.

In a nutshell what David's presentation talks about is how bridge pins used to be solid with no slots. The bridge/plate/top was reamed to exactly fit the pin and then the bridge/plate/top were slotted to fit the respective strings. This means that on the low E side the slot was the largest and on the high e side the slot was the smallest.

The clear advantage of all of this was that the ball end of the string resided firmly on the bridge plate and not on the edge of the bridge plate as shown in David's presentation board. When the ball end of the string is in contact with the edge of the bridge plate premature wear happens.

An additional benefit when needed is that slotting the bridge/plate/top increases the break angle over the saddle from what we see today with slotted pins....

With the advent of plastics the guitar building industry saw a couple of ways to reduce costs simply by making millions of plastic pins. The pins could be slotted instead of slotting the bridge/plate/top and this cut out the labor and skill required to carefully slot the bridge/plate/top and since manufactures are always risk adverse dropping in a cheap, one-size-fits-all slotted plastic pin eliminated the risk of a workperson incorrectly slotting a bridge/plate/top and ruining an entire guitar at the near completion stage....

Fast forward to today and most of us have never seen an unslotted pin before and at least in my case had no idea that they used to be unslotted and there are clearly benefits to not slotting them today.

Make the pin fit the hole exactly meaning ream with a matching taper to what ever pin taper you use, 3 and 5 degree are the common ones. Use unslotted pins and carefully slot the bridge/plate/top to fit the windings of the string gauges that you use in the respective locations. If you are slotting correctly you should not have to use the reamer after you have initially seated the pin correctly, the slot is for the string and hole is for the pin. If you only have slotted pins they can be used with the slots pointing backwards and you can slot the bridge/plate/top but this can also confuse the unknowing the next time someone does a string change.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bridge pin fit
I have the same photo of Davids presentation board, I show it to people who use plastic pins and say the wood and bone are too expensive. After David's presentation at Ann Arbor I went home and converted a guitar to slotted bridge, and did my others over the next couple days.

I have a friend who has a late 40's 00-18 Martin that was built with slotted bridge but had slotted plastic pins put in by a former owner, a couple of the string balls were part way up the pin hole with the pin bent just like David's photo shows, we turned the pins around and a set of unslotted pins for him will be on my next StewMac order. It is such a shame to see a wonderful sounding old guitar like this abused this way. The reason the guitar was brought to my place was to let me try it, I noticed the pins issue with my mirror while looking at the bracing, I love to look inside of old guitars there is so much to learn from them.

Fred
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