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Master builders, come forth...
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Author:  the Padma [ Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Master builders, come forth...
Ok is given that ....

We now know how to get her to the point of looking good, sounding good and no runs in the finish, our shop is operational and we still gotts all of the fingers.

Now I ask....what makes her ring?

What makes her sing? What gives her the sustain?

What do you gotta do, while making the saw dust, that gonna make her sing and ring like a bell?....ya ya we know what woods ring and sing and sustain better 'n other woods and the books with the notes and scantlings are all out there for the most optimum thicknesses and shapes(with pics too) and we even got a set of fancy calipers for Xmas....but

and here it comes....

What do you do then?

How do you know how much extra you gott scrape off of her here or there to coax every note to ring, to give her a deeper or a higher voice and sustain.

How do you invite the angel to sing and the demons growl? How do you bring out her play full joy full voice from a dark hell.

If you don't understand these questions...you might wanna come back and read the reply's if we get any.

I'm talking fine tuning her while the sawdust takes flight from her top or sides ribs or back, till every piece of wood is shaped and fine tuned long before you ever reach for the hide glue or whatever you stick together with?

My old master said things like..."well I scraper her a bit here or I sand here a bit there .....its all
by feel, what else can you do?

Masters, and you know who you are ... come forth from
the magical, mystical realms of your work shops and
talk to us about "feeling" the sound in the wood.

Inquiring minds wish to know of your wisdumb dudes.

Duh Padma gotts more question, but that will do it for now.



blessings

Peace and carrots

duh
Padma
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
Tap.
Author:  Parser [ Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
I'm definitely not a master - more of an apprentice...!

With that said, I've become a big believer in the tap and whittle method. I have been doing it in 2 steps 1)right after the top is first braced (by shaving/sanding the braces) and 2) once the top is glued up and the body is bound (by sanding the edges of the lower bout). I don't try to hit any particular note, I just like to get a nice bass response by tapping where the bridge goes.

I think it's one of the most interesting and fun parts of building!

Trev
Author:  wbergman [ Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
I did see an article in GAL many years ago explaining how to tap or vibrated the separate top and then shave more off the braces. As I recall this was a rather analytical approach, i.e., it explained how to copy the technique without relying upon "feel" or experience. I think the example was for a lute.
Author:  bluescreek [ Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
I only have 100 guitar under my belt . One thing I learned , it wasn't until I started to question my opinions that I started to really learn. There are many experts out there and some actually know what they are doing.
You have to have good gluing techniques. Learning how to match the bracing to the tops and what bracing does. Keep a building log and try not to do too many changes so you can learn the cause effect relationship.
There are more than one way to do things , but you need to find what works for you. People all hear something different , so learn what it is you want to hear and strive to make it sound like that . If making a top light was all that counted , we would have figured out how to brace a piece of paper .
Author:  cphanna [ Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
Yo, The Padma,
No one will ever confuse me with a master, either, but based on my experience building a carved 17" archtop, I have an answer. I also have a hunch you can identify with this answer. When I was making my archtop, I just listened to what the instrument was telling me. I thumped and stroked and ran my hands over it, and it made noises every time it was touched. I just scraped and thumped, and sanded, and thumped, etc. Then I touched it here and there and thumped elsewhere, and I tried to feel the response. I just kept doing this until it all felt right to me. I think you have been relating to this method for many more years than I have been building instruments. Okay....it's a good method...but it depends on experience in the hands of the person doing all that "fondling." I am short in the experience department! I got an okay acoustic instrument out of the process, and she sounds GREAT when plugged in. I am now motivated to build several more, in order to get one that sounds acoustically better. I think I can do it. I think I can make a lot of progress. I might not live long enough to make a truly wonderful instrument, but I will press on a little bit at a time, and maybe I will eventually get there. If and when I get there, maybe I'll even have a clue what made it good.

Patrick
Author:  Ervin Somogyi [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
Hello Padma, Patrick, Trev, John, and all:

Good questions these, about how to make the guitar sing. The whittle-and-listen technique has a lot going for it. In fact, it's the one that traditional luthiers have always used -- before computers, books, blueprints, tone generators, etc. became relatively easily available -- and which I myself use.

I'd recommend reading 'The Responsive Guitar', one of a two-volume set of books that were published last July. It contains two really good chapters on the specific ins and outs of voicing the soundbox. It also contains a lot of other chapters that explain, in some detail, how and why it is that doing certain things to the soundbox -- and not necessarily involving hacking a lot of wood off, but instead removing modest amounts from the right places -- produces some remarkable results. It also goes far toward explaining how different luthiers do different things to their soundboxes and nonetheless get good results: they have an understanding of one or more of the principles of plate movement that underlie the behaviors of the guitar top. Honest.

Cheers, Ervin Somogyi
Author:  the Padma [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
Yo, Ervin

Always an honour and thank you for responding to the questions in this thread.

Ummm...hows chances of PMing me them two chapters you mentioned.

blessings,

please and carrots

Duh
Padma
Author:  John Ray [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
Traditional luthiers do what John Hall describes much more than the whittle and listen method. The other thing they do is learn hands-on from someone who knows the answer to those questions. I wonder how are books sales going?


John Ray
Granada
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
I keep trying everything and tapping and whittling is very abstract to me at this stage of my building. I'm not sure I'll ever get it that way. Intuition can lead one to magnificence just as easily as it can lead one into disaster I think. I have found one trick however that seems to really work for me on my Spanish guitars. Thinning the top out towards the rim seems to open it up.
Author:  WudWerkr [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
" Looks in sheepishly " :( No Master here BARELY an Amature . Who has the best reading Material on tap tone . And is there a cd / dvd tutorial out there as well?

With my first as I have mentioned I have tone and volume till i played with a group , and volume seemed to disappear . I have several ideas why , but id like to know more about tap toning as i keep building.

So whats conscensus , who has best book/ tutorial on that idunno
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
To get to the next level in your building , you need to become more scientific in your approach. Intuition can only take you so far and that is still more of an educated guess. I use deflection testing on tops so I know the tops strength and can match bracing to the top. Building guitars look hard . but it is harder than it looks.
If you are after the Martin sound . that is easier to reverse engineer
Author:  WudWerkr [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Ervin Somogyi wrote:

I'd recommend reading 'The Responsive Guitar', one of a two-volume set of books that were published last July. It contains two really good chapters on the specific ins and outs of voicing the soundbox. It also contains a lot of other chapters that explain, in some detail, how and why it is that doing certain things to the soundbox -- and not necessarily involving hacking a lot of wood off, but instead removing modest amounts from the right places -- produces some remarkable results. It also goes far toward explaining how different luthiers do different things to their soundboxes and nonetheless get good results: they have an understanding of one or more of the principles of plate movement that underlie the behaviors of the guitar top. Honest.

Cheers, Ervin Somogyi


Good plug on the book. Unfortunately if we all reply to forum threads by pointing people to books, then it would be even more lackluster than referring to archives.


Filippo

Excellent Point . Was mainly wondering if there was a one that the majority agreed was a good refrence for Begginers Like me . Some of the stuff based on "scientific" method can get over a fellas head fast.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
"How do you know how much extra you gotta scrape off of her here or there to coax every note to ring, to give her a deeper or a higher voice and sustain."

In many cases it may be adding some extra to begin with and leaving it there.............
Author:  WudWerkr [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
Calmly puts hand behind back and tapes Fingers shut !
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
Todd Stock wrote:
Officer O'Rielly of the Reality Police here.

Those of you that number your builds in the hundreds are free to go; however, please don't leave the Forum.

The rest of you - step away from the topic and place your hands behind your back. Do not under any circumstances return your fingers to the keyboard or I may be forced to respond with deadly wit.

You are being charged with one count of imagining you are a master luthier and one count of responding to an overly broad question in the third degree while impersonating said master luthier.

* * *

But seriously, folks... if you ask a question that needs a book to answer, don't be surprised to get a recommendation to read a book. How about we rescope the question to something a little less broad so Ervin and a few others posting on the thread might be able to answer in something less than 10,000 words?

And finally, I don't know what a master luthier is, but I suspect that what most of us should be doing here is paying rapt attention to Ervin, John, and a few others and doing our best to ask intelligent questions when the time comes.

Now excuse me...I have to go with Officer O'Rielly...


Could not agree more. Well said.
Author:  Christian Schmid [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
No master luthier here either (only 2 completed), but somebody who has studied psychology and learning extensively.

You really have to figure out what works for you. And I mean this in terms of a match between your personality, your learning style, and how you approach an instrument.

John Hall's advice of a scientific approach is a very good one. Make measurements of just about anything imaginable, keep logs, change only little at a time,... It's great, you can put numbers on just about anything and achieve a very high degree of objective control. And it's knowledge that can be shared. If somebody gave you all the measurements of a particular instrument, you would probably be able to make a guitar that sounds 'pretty close'.

However if there's a mismatch between that approach and the type of person you are, this can also take the fun out of building. It's also doubtful that you will have the discipline to keep up all that measuring and note taking,...

The tactile sensitivity of our fingertips is quite extraordinary - just think of blind people who are able to read braille - it's incredible. And with lutherie experience you can also train this sensitivity to 'feel' and 'read' the top of a guitar when handling it. Same with hearing and tapping. Yes, it is more esoteric - it's not quantifiable, and you trade in that high degree of objective control for 'subjective' control. You may not be able to really explain what you're doing, because you can't put words on what you feel (like 'it feels only 0.992 times as stiff as before I shaved a little bit off'), yet you know. Your senses tell you. Your fingertips are extraordinary measurement instruments, as are your ears and your eyes. And while those measurements are not quantifiable in our minds, they still are there, and we know how to interpret them. Very often we just don't trust them. And it probably takes a lot of experience to build up that 'feel' in your senses.

But again - scientifically trained minds may go crazy using that approach, because there's the feeling of a total loss of 'objective' control. And it's knowledge that can't be shared as easily. You may be able to make a 'perfect' top, and give it to someone else to feel and flex and tap and trust that their senses feel the right thing, but that's about it.

In both cases, experience is key - whether it's experience through objective or subjective measurements.

So that's $0.02 from another guy who secretly imagines being a master luthier laughing6-hehe

Christian
Author:  WudWerkr [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
and the crowd went SILENT hmmmmm wonder why :?:
Author:  ChuckG [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
I fall into the non-master majority here, also, as I'm currently working on #18. I have read Roger Siminoff's "The Art of Tap Tuning", I have both of John Mayes' voicing DVDs, and Kent Evrett's voicing DVD set (2 DVDs in this one) and they have ALL been valuable in giving me information and inspiration to work with. With each guitar I feel that I understand a little bit more of the "majic" of voicing a guitar, and after each guitar I go back and re-read or view these valuable learning tools. But they are just that - tools. The point here is to take in as much information as you can (or want to) and then go to the shop and put it to work. I don't believe there is a shortcut to training your ears and fingers to know what sounds or feels right. Only experience can give you that.

Chuck
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
I can't remember where he posted it, here or at ANZLF, but Ervin suggested getting a junker at a pawn shop with a solid top, and plywood back and side or solid, I think he said that didn't really matter. Get into the sound hole and shave braces till the sound starts to get better, and sand the top in various places, to see what it does. Keep doing this and listen to it get better, and better. Keep doing it until it starts sounding bad, and you know you've gone too far. Route the top off and see what you have. Make a new top, with no rosette, just quick, and re-top the box, then work that top, and try to find the peak. Just sounded like good advice. Keep doing it till you understand what to tweak, and / or you find out what tweaks do certain things. What happens when you thin the area between the bridge and soundhole on the treble side? What happens when you sand below the bridge toward the tail? etc, etc and etc.

His advice was much better worded than mine, and had more detail, but his point was to train yourself to know what will happen when you do certain things.
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Master builders, come forth...
Strichtly early days amateur, but I wanted to add a little fuel to the fire as its such an interesting topic. Everything about every guitar ever built could in theory be explained by some equation - if you had the computing power to develop a formula, and ways of measuring all the variables scientifically and accurately - and then in theory it would be possible to recreate a specific sound - minus of course the effects of aging - because no doubt the environmental factors in which a guitar lives during its life will vary and also have an effect (eg the how often its played under what conditions etc...?)

And Guitars I have played by some that I would certainly label 'masters' of their art have that special quality and importantly consistency of tone - so how do they do it indeed? Some have spent years measuring and meticuously recording the details of the small changes they make and the effect it has on tone so that their knowledge is vast - whether they measure the effect by some scientific measurement or by tap and ear is surely not the issue? Its the experience that they have built up by either method that provides them with the knowledge.

Naturally the scientific approach makes it easier to share that knowledge, but ultimately, its how its applied to a build that is important?

...and then there are those mysteries that the builder cant control, as alluded to in the 1st paragraph, ... the mysterious process of aging and opening up that can turn something average and solid into a 50 year old tone monster.... :shock:

The great thing is that the scientific method helps share knowledge - which in turn means more have access to the experience that would otherwise only be shared with a traditional apprentice, ... it still needs to be interpreted, but its a huge help. On the flip side, one of the wonders of this craft is the mystery of the wood and tone itself, its what keeps so many addicted, and the discovery you make on your own journey is part of the fun... Its why I guess I sometimes 'ignore' some of the advice - not out of any lack of respect for the experienced folk out there, but because what we can learn and enjoy from the experience and mistakes is part of the an enjoyable learning process. (as well as there being as many methods as there are luthiers :D )

Finally, and this is why i guess the scientific method will not satisfty everyone, is that nearly all the great makers of old did not have those methods at their disposal - it was based on experience - trial and error, but i bet they recorded the effect?

Interesting stuff. [:Y:]
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