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| Strange brew: any advice on this project? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25905 |
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Okay, folks, I need some opinions. I need to explain what I am doing and why. Please, I am not asking for debates about whether DOING IT is a good idea. Could be "idiotic" and you shouldn't waste good time with advice to that effect. I don't mean to dismiss anyone and hopefully, when I explain, it will make sense. But I am known sometimes for my non-sensical behavior. Medication may help, but I doubt it. Okay, guys, let's say, theoretically, one had a number of nice quality ukuleles in his possession. (Number? Ummmm, substantial. My wife said "Oh, no!" if that helps explain.) Next, let's say that these theoretical instruments were essentially perfect EXCEPT that the neck set was bad. (As in the illustration below.) Now, suppose someone wanted to "rescue" these stringed "friends" for educational uses and freebies--for those who cannot buy an ukulele, even an inexpensive factory one. Further, let's say that the unnamed individual (let's call him "Numbskull") has a hair-brained-numbskull idea to do that in a way that would give these (un-useful) instruments a life with those who would like to participate in music, but "got no jack." Without quitting his job or becoming divorced. How's that for a set up? Alright, so the strings are okay at the nut end, gap wise. However, at the saddle end, the gap from fret-to-strings is excessive, too much to be fixed by lowering the saddle alone. The bridge (made of rosewood) is fairly thick, not excessively so, but enough to give one hope that by reducing the height of the bridge and/or saddle might be a possibility. Now, again, I'm not asking about my favorite "Martin Style5" instrument, but unloved ukes from the "Island of Misfit Toys" whose futures will be otherwise grim. I butchered one (as a test) and it seemed to work okay, with the instrument maintaining playability, at least as far as tone and action. (Preliminary result...) So to set up the questions: * The bridge is rosewood and reasonably hard wood. It is attached firmly to the soundboard. Unknown if the bridge could be removed successfully, but not in any efficient way, in any case. The nut is either plastic or bone (depending.) * The nylon strings are tied on the bridge in the typical way. There seems to be enough clearance to redrill the holes for the strings, to increase the break angle to a reasonable angle on the "lowered" bridge. The saddle is not glued, but loose. It is non-compensated, as is the fashion with most ukuleles. So mostly straight and flat, more or less. * I have plenty 'o' tools (sounds like a Irish vaudevillian!) to do the task. I have: 3 flavors of rotary tool, a flex shaft tool, a quality laminate trimmer and routers ranging from 1 3/4hp to 3hp. I have bits of most size and description, largely spanking-new and of good quality (no junk.) I have a table router with fence and t-slot table, tho' I haven't been optimistic that the table will help. It seems more like a free-router job, but I am open to ideas. * I have a Dewalt scroll saw, a table saw, a radial drill press, a miter saw and most power hand tools like sanders, grinders, jig saws. I have a nice selection of hand tools, including fret saws, gent's saw, dozuki and most typical handsaws. I have plenty of layout tools. * I have lots of carving chisels (20-25) and a number of hand planes that I am coming to grips with. Some are "niiiiiice." Some are mid-level, some cheapos that could be sacrificed to a cause like this. * I have a belt/disk sander, 3"&5", and an "ok" jointer and a "good" 13" planer that still has the new car smell. * I have ample materials and supplies for jigs, tooling, phenolic, plex, aluminum, hardwoods, baltic birch ply and a bunch of stuff I have forgotten. I probably have "it." * I possess good hand skills, being an artist first. I also have identical instruments that I can "practice" with, if I need to. I am a new luthier, but have done stuff as "tight-in" as lutherie, but I am still getting my feet under me at present and learning. I have been doing repair lately, to get experience. Okay, enough lead in, here are the questions: Rosewood is hard. If I were to use a router-like tool to reduce the height of the bridge, which would work best (in your opinon...) Proxxon rotary tool in a plunge base? Rigid laminate trimmer with a rabbet-type bit? A slow attack with the Milwaukee 1.75 or go to town at high speed with the 3 horse monster and a stump cutter? I would hope to end up with as little hand work or "fussy" work as I can. Obviously, less tear out or chip out is better, but a small amount of chipping could be chamfered with a rotary tool, a plane or chisel. Is there a "saw" approach that would be superior? I have a bandsaw, 12", although I am having problems visualizing how it would work with the whole uke being handled? Other saws are available too, as I said above. I fear a handsaw approach, while controllable, will too quickly hit my "What am I, insane?" button and prevent any further progress. Rosewood is hard! Did I mention that....? My intuition says "Router plus Jig", but you guys are so good at "jigging" that I would happily accept any ideas or advice that would make this A. Easier, B. Cleaner, C. Better? I have jig parts, t-track and materials and hardware, toggle clamps, blah blah blah. If I don't have it, I'll probably get it. With (mumble-mumble) number of these to do, minutes will count. Prep will pay back handsomely in time savings. If I forgot obvious details (likely) please point out my omissions and I will add the info. Photos are available, but for reasons I can't specify, I did the illustration below instead of just simply snapping a photo (if that explains where I am on it.) I hope you don't mind my "obtuse" answers, but it is necessary. Thank you for any info you can contribute to this hair-brained endeavor. Signed "Numbskull." aka--Mark Lewis |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
So what I'm gathering is you wanna lower the saddles on a whole bunch of bridges quick and dirty... If that s correct then go jig and router or dremel with a down cut mill end. Pull the saddle, route the bridge lower and then route a new saddle slot. Best is to post pics.... You would probably get more replies if you just asked your question directly. Nice looking doggie. good luck. |
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Oh, I didn't think anyone would argue with me. My fear was that people would argue with each other, spoiling the spirit of brotherhood, camaraderie and togetherness that seem woven into the fabric of the forum!  Anyone who thinks ::me:: crazy could probably find ample evidence without much effort.  Re:firewood. Sorry, got a gas fireplace and firepit. Unless I want to drive to Tejas for a bonfire, I'm stuck with 'em. Thanks for your encouragement! ![[clap]](./images/smilies/smiley32.gif "adulations") Mark |
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
the Padma wrote: So what I'm gathering is you wanna lower the saddles on a whole bunch of bridges quick and dirty... If that s correct then go jig and router or dremel with a down cut mill end. Pull the saddle, route the bridge lower and then route a new saddle slot. Thanks for your opinion. I think this is where I am heading. Funny you mention the mill-end, I kept thinking "fly cutter" when I was trying to visualize it! Quote: Best is to post pics.... <sigh> I wish I could. I can send photos to people, just not the whole public forum. Quote: You would probably get more replies if you just asked your question directly. Ummm, ok. I was trying to put enough info into the original post for people to respond, trying to be conscientious about people using their time to help me. After all, this isn't standard fare for anyone, typically. Maybe humor was the wrong take on it, but I am sincere and appreciate opinions. I just wanted people to not have to ask me questions that I should have covered in my post. I hate it when that happens. Quote: Nice looking doggie. Thanks, he is a gem. Lab and Poodle mix. Great pet. Thanks Padma! |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Looks like you want a quick way to correct a poor neck set. Once you figure out the correct bridge height on each uke (based on where the strings are at on each) it would take only a few minutes with a block plane to plane down the bridge. Probably less time than it would to set up a jig and route. The block plane will be fast, clean and much quieter. |
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Rod True wrote: Once you figure out the correct bridge height on each uke (based on where the strings are at on each) it would take only a few minutes with a block plane to plane down the bridge. Probably less time than it would to set up a jig and route. The block plane will be fast, clean and much quieter. Thanks, Rod. I have a low-angle LN block plane. I was unsure if it would be effective because of the size of the bridge and the hardness, but quiet is nice! So I think I need to come to grips with my "higher-plane" self. My past woodwork tended towards carving, using woods considerably softer than rosewood. Planes are still kinda new to me. At least at the degree of shaving rosewood. But I have plenty of fodder to practice with, so this is a good chance to try! Would you re-slot the bridge for the saddle or just cut down the saddle? Incidentally, in case I was unclear previously, I am trying to set these up for benevolent uses, like maybe, elementary schools. More music is mo' better, right? So it would make the trouble worthwhile if I could get enough done to start a music class at a local needy school. I know that music programs have suffered with budget cuts, recently. Again, thanks! Mark |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
deleted |
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Fil: OF COURSE I saw the humor of it.  Asking some of the best luthiers in the world how to "desecrate" a ****load of factory seconds was questionable wisdom from the get-go!  I better not lose my sense of irony on this one. After all, I joined the forum for the "right" reasons, not trying to become the "Lamont Sanford" of the luthier world! I guess it has something to do with my upbringing, but it literally hurts to see blatant waste of resources. Especially when it comes to music.... Hey, if I had had one to fix, I would have gone slow-and-steady and needed no advice, no guts, no glory. However, when the numbers get up to ::Wife's voice:"What did you do!?!":: levels, I thought it prudent to ask the pros, fully ready for the shots broadside of my poopdeck! ![[uncle]](./images/smilies/surrenderflagqv6.gif "Uncle") All the help so far has been great, guys! And, as god is my witness, I'll never take a belt sander to a ukulele again!  T-shirt:: "I'm with Stupid"====> Mark |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Put me in the "Dissenting Opinion" camp... I think the best course of action would be to measure things up to see just how far off you really were... to give some indication of how much material would need to be taken off... My guess is that each Uke is different in its amount of "Out-of-whack" Like... Say your action is 1/4" too high at the body/neck joint -- You probably won't be able to cut off enough bridge to get it back under control. Or say... your Neck has a huge curve in it... Sawing off the bridge won't straighten this out. Also.. Since these are tie-block bridges... you need to make sure you leave enough material behind so that you can: 1. Tie strings without breaking the bridge 2. Leave enough upward break angle on the strings so they still stop off on the saddle and don't sound like a Sitar when you pluck... Something else to consider here.... before you get to Carving.... The bridge is the biggest, heaviest, and stiffest brace on your entire Uke. As an integral part of the bracing scheme... It has a significant effect on the Voice of the instrument. Say you already like the sound of the ukes.. and they have a very good sound, volume, and balance... just the Action is way off.... Now you go and sand 1/2 the material off of this Brace called a Bridge.... and it totally changes the sound to Zingy and Pingy... or maybe something else that you didn't like either... Anyway, I am of the camp that you should try to fix the actual problem if you can, rather than fixing all around the problem... If they have neck sets that are way out of whack.. and you "Fix" the bridge.... What's to stop the neck from going *MORE* out of whack and leaving you with both Neck problems and a bridge that is way too short.... And.. if they are a giant pile of Factory Seconds -- figure out how to fix them up right... and you will know how to do it... But.. if you want to, have at it. I have shortened bridges Guitars... and then realized that I would need to saw the Neck off to fix the problem... This is part of the story of my Esteban Guitar Retop project... Thanks John |
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
truckjohn wrote: I think the best course of action would be to measure things up to see just how far off you really were... to give some indication of how much material would need to be taken off... My guess is that each Uke is different in its amount of "Out-of-whack" Like... Say your action is 1/4" too high at the body/neck joint -- You probably won't be able to cut off enough bridge to get it back under control. Or say... your Neck has a huge curve in it... Sawing off the bridge won't straighten this out. Thanks for your thoughts, John. Much appreciated. Strangely, there seems to be "groupings" of similar factors, like something in the factory was not tightened down for a day/hour/whatever. The groups seem to be similar (exact? not sure) in the amount that they are "off." I picked up some serious straight edges to check out the degree that I am dealing with. To really check it out I needed something super straight and nada flex, so one trip to Woodcraft and I am ready to evaluate for real. I'll let you know what I find out. Quote: Also.. Since these are tie-block bridges... you need to make sure you leave enough material behind so that you can: 1. Tie strings without breaking the bridge 2. Leave enough upward break angle on the strings so they still stop off on the saddle and don't sound like a Sitar when you pluck... Good points. I think considering my "battle-field-surgery" of the first victim, It may just be enough, although the string holes would need redrilling in a way that I haven't yet figured out, considering the small dimensions I am dealing with. I have a 90 degree for my Dremel. That might get me into an angle that would allow a redrill. Break angle is still an open question, one that I think I'll have to see at the end of one of the surgeries. I would certainly be concerned that a low break angle would "sitarize" the ukes, making "buzz" more than the hero of Toy Story!  Quote: Something else to consider here.... before you get to Carving.... The bridge is the biggest, heaviest, and stiffest brace on your entire Uke. As an integral part of the bracing scheme... It has a significant effect on the Voice of the instrument. Say you already like the sound of the ukes.. and they have a very good sound, volume, and balance... just the Action is way off.... Now you go and sand 1/2 the material off of this Brace called a Bridge.... and it totally changes the sound to Zingy and Pingy... or maybe something else that you didn't like either... Good point. I don't know how much of a "stressed member" the bridge is? (Although "Stressed Member" would be a good name for a hair band!) SO we would be hoping that it was "overbuilt" originally, so wood could be removed without wrecking the whole thing mechanically. Or are you saying that the loss of 'mass' would change the sound substantially? Quote: Anyway, I am of the camp that you should try to fix the actual problem if you can, rather than fixing all around the problem... If they have neck sets that are way out of whack.. and you "Fix" the bridge.... What's to stop the neck from going *MORE* out of whack and leaving you with both Neck problems and a bridge that is way too short.... And.. if they are a giant pile of Factory Seconds -- figure out how to fix them up right... and you will know how to do it... Hmmm. Y'know, I really, in my heart, wish I could reasonably fix the neck itself, but I doubt we are dealing with HHG here, probably more like some adhesive from Billy Mayes. So let's say heat will soften the glue under the fretboard and I can separate it from the soundboard. Then, if we presume I can get the neck joint separated, I would need to shim the neck to force the neck backwards (peghead=downward?) enough to correct the angle and reglue with something that doesn't say "AS SEEN ON TV" on the package. I guess I should give it a shot, seeing that messing one up is no harm-no foul. Any advice in that direction would be welcome. Hmmm, will I have to cut the fretboard to do this, I wonder? Also, being factory models, if we presume that the necks were cut correctly to begin with, we would be, what, dealing with wood movement and not just a bad joint angle? Argh. So much research, so little time!  Quote: But.. if you want to, have at it. I have shortened bridges Guitars... and then realized that I would need to saw the Neck off to fix the problem... This is part of the story of my Esteban Guitar Retop project... You mean "the" Esteban! Dude, you met tha' Maestro himself! Luuuuucky. Closest I got to celebrity was Clapton's drycleaner! 
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Hey, maybe I could make them into SITARS on purpose! John and George, what have you wrought? 
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Well.. I guarantee that there is at least 1 tool guaranteed to remove most any neck..... The Saw! This also works to free up Spanish Heel sort of construction.... as well as just about any sort of epoxy ever invented. Just make sure you can get in through the soundhole to throw a couple screws in there... as a 2" soundhole is probably smaller than your hands... Most glues including Epoxy also frequently let go at temperatures below that of Hide Glue -- so a conventional Clothes Iron may do the trick for removing the fretboard, bridge, and whatever else is stuck to it... Speaking of Glues -- I think most of Esteban's original construction was done with "Hot Glue" (As in the little heated squirter deal and bag full of glue sticks you buy for $10.00) On the subject of shaving Bridges -- Try it out yourself if you are curious... If you mess it up, make up another bridge of your own -- they are pretty easy to make... Thanks John |
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Thanks, John. I think some experimentation is called for and the general consensus is to go simpler, if the neck itself can't be fixed. To everyone who responded, thanks for the info and for taking me (semi)seriously. I'll keep the loop open as I try some stuff. I'll even include pictures of the stitches! ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | the Padma [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
markwlewis wrote: Asking some of the best luthiers in the world how to.... it literally hurts to see blatant waste of resources. Mark Yo, the Mark... So from lowering a saddle / bridge to a neck reset . Hmmm well me ain't one of the "Best Luthiers" in this world, but me is one of the rest...my suggestion if you ain't gonna post pics then take it them to your local luthier and ask him/her (yes they do come in all sexes) their best take on it. Perhaps your local luthier school would like to get involved ...learning and good will and all that. "Blaten waste of resources" eh ...a few mangled mass produced mandos? Ya right... talk to me about the water and the trees and the air and the extinct animals and the number of people that died of starvation since you been readin this post...and you concerned about a few Frigged up mandos....nice. Yes Duh Padma can be sarcastic .... but Mark....is nothing personal, Me assure you. Is just were the consciousness of this planet is at I guess. icu Duh Padma |
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Quote: Yo, the Mark... So from lowering a saddle / bridge to a neck reset . Hmmm well me ain't one of the "Best Luthiers" in this world, but me is one of the rest...my suggestion if you ain't gonna post pics then take it them to your local luthier and ask him/her (yes they do come in all sexes) their best take on it. Pad: Like I sez, I can't post pix on a open forum, but if you would like some (seems so) I could forward pix or put them up on my server and send you a link. I am looking for the best way to get the job done and lowering the bridge would be the simplest process, likely. At some point, I think I would like the experience of a neck reset for myself, on a non-important instrument, just for giggles and grins. But I am not sure that I could do 50 or 60 neck resets in a good month. Quote: Perhaps your local luthier school would like to get involved ...learning and good will and all that. No lutherie schools local to me. A club is around, but I haven't participated there, it was on the same nite as my playing group. But it's worth the thought....hmmmm. Quote: "Blaten waste of resources" eh ...a few mangled mass produced mandos? Ya right... Well, actually ukes, but whatevah....ummmm, but more than a few. I stored them today and it took about two hours and a cargo net. Heck, last month I already had a "few" instruments that needed fixin' and....no advice needed, at least on those. So, yeah, if you consider several trees worth of ukuleles an insignificant number it is no big whoop. I have permission to dump 'em if I can't do something with 'em. But, at least here, the schools are "hat-in-hand" when it comes to anything outside of the "3 R's" and music and art are the first to go. If I can help, I want to. I am sure you can understand that. Quote: talk to me about the water and the trees and the air and the extinct animals and the number of people that died of starvation since you been readin this post...and you concerned about a few Frigged up mandos....nice. Actually, my wife and I just sent money to the folks who got slammed by the earthquake. Even my kid thought enough that he sent half his birthday money to try to help. I was proud of that, I can tell you. I am with you as far as the world goes....they ain't making any more, so we should keep up the one we have. But I can multitask if the situation calls for it.  Quote: Yes Duh Padma can be sarcastic .... but Mark....is nothing personal, Me assure you. Is just were the consciousness of this planet is at I guess. No offense taken. I had hoped to meet people here under different circumstances, but life throws curveballs sometimes. I try to roll with it, as I can.  Incidentally, I saw your workshop photos and was knocked out! Wow, I just feel like it would be working in Santa's workshop! And I mean that in the best possible way. I was impressed that you took your own space seriously. Made me think, for sure. People have been great here in the forum, honestly. I wasn't expecting more than a few opinions and ideas, as people wished, and I got it. |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
markwlewis wrote: Incidentally, I saw your workshop photos and was knocked out! Wow, I just feel like it would be working in Santa's workshop! And I mean that in the best possible way. I was impressed that you took your own space seriously. HO HO HO. Thank you, and yes, why not take it seriously, Duh Padma been in and out of shops and studios all him life, and as me spend my entire day there, least me can do is makes it comfortable. Glad you likes it. Its my shop, my life and my sanctuary and me gonna lives in it the only way me know how...my way.  icu Duh Padma |
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| Author: | markwlewis [ Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Strange brew: any advice on this project? |
Quote: Its my shop, my life and my sanctuary and me gonna lives in it the only way me know how...my way. Y'know, sometimes I think we all need reminding of this, especially those of use steeped in the "modern life." It's a symptom of "overload" to forget the power of "centeredness" in our lives. Thanks for the reminder.
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