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| Irving Sloane Revisited http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25862 |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Irving Sloane Revisited |
Several years ago I received a call from my friend Buzz Levine. A gentleman had come into his store with a guitar that he had purchased many years ago from a neighbor and which had languished in his basement since. The town he lived in was Ridgewood N.J. and his neighbor was Irving Sloane. Using photographs and comparing details with Sloane's 1966 book "Classic Guitar Construction", we quickly determined that this was indeed the rosewood guitar which he had built and photographed step by step (one of two) for his book. It was great fun to come face to face with a guitar that I had admired from afar for many decades. Looking at it now with my present perspective I've noticed several interesting things. First off, it basically is a Bouchet copy. The plantilla of ths guitar struck me as being unfamiliar and even way back then it didn't look like all the other great maker guitars illustrated (many for the first time in my experience) in that book. This was confirmed when I looked inside and saw the exact same "Bouchet" pattern that Sloane had illustrated (Fig.5 pg. 16.) and even though a photo had been taken of the rim and "top" before assembly (Fig.73 pg. 57) he had actually used a different one on this guitar. Sloane moved to Belgium in the 70's and he and Bouchet became friends. I don't know if he had contact with him prior to 1964 (the date on this guitar) but it seems certain that he had an opportunity to see one of his instruments being in the greater NY area. I don't think this guitar is important in the development of the classical guitar per se, but I think it's influence on guitar makers, especially of my generation, was profound . I think the most significant thing about Sloane's book is that through it's beautiful design and lay out (Sloane was primarily a designer) guitar making was presented as an attractive and aesthetically pleasing thing to do and thus drew in many converts. Attachment: Sloane-001.jpg Attachment: Sloane-002.jpg Attachment: Sloane-003.jpg Attachment: Sloane-006.jpg Attachment: Sloane-007.jpg Attachment: Sloane-008.jpg
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| Author: | Ken Franklin [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Yes, David, but what did it sound like? Seriously, great post. I started out with the Sloane book and a hunch that I might be able to do this. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Nice, David. I like seeing the pictures of the inside. It is a pretty guitar, but I have the same question - How does it sound? The Sloane book was my first real book on guitar building, back in the early '80's. I re-read it several times over the years, before I actually started building. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
This guitar sounds very good. It is in need of some fretboard work (the edges have lifted over the body due to exposure to humidity) so I really haven't set it up ideally. The top is nice and flexible with a properly guaged rim and back, it feels right. The only thing that shows a slight lack of sophistication is the neck shaping which is rather thick and round. Easy to forgive on this one though. Best |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Wonderful post David, thank you. And what luck! I too was motivated by that book, and moved by the elegance of presentation. Even the writing became a model of excellence. It was one of those experiences that made me want to become better at whatever I did. Steve |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Way way cool. Thanks, David. Did Buzz Levine used to be called Jeff, and do repairs for Matt Umanov? |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Thanks, David. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Dave what an incredible find! I love the Sloane book and have valued it greatly over the years. I talked to Irving in the middle 80's when he started making tuners and have a set he made before he had any help. Can I come down & see this guitar ? mc |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Of course Mike! Any time! There are some others here I think you would enjoy as well. Give me a call........ |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Thanks David! I have been very busy -but plan to take it easy the first week of March. Are you available then? Mike |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Yes! |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Irving Sloan visited me in my Musical Instrument Maker's Shop in Colonial Williamsburg many years ago. I have no idea when it was by now. At the time he was going to do a book on guitar repair,and was looking for a place to take his pictures in. We only made 18th.C. instruments,of course,in the museum setting. I could not have tied up the shop for months while he took pictures,anyway. The shop belonged to the museum,not me,and we had to be open to the public,and keep out modern things like people with cameras and no costume! He went to Martin eventually. I was struck with surprise when he said "You aren't one of those who believe in tuning violin plates are you?" I replied that I certainly did tune them,and explained why,though I thought that his mind was already made up. After that,I decided that he liked to make books more than making many instruments. Some guys make instruments,others write books,and that is the truth MOST of the time. Back in the 60's I had found his classical guitar making book useful,and adopted his method of making molds with necks on them,a very useful way of easily assuring neck alignment. I had been building since 1954,but his new-to me information was useful. I think Sloane was a good engineer in the way he went about his jig making,etc.. I was disappointed that he did not understand the practical,and widely practiced tuning of violin plates. Maybe his Norwegian folk fiddle was the only violin he ever made? |
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| Author: | Peter J [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
David, Great post and thanks for sharing. It prompted me to go and dig the Sloane book off the bookshelf and compare the photos..... yep.... same instrument. What a great find. Thanks for the inside shots. I had no idea that he had spent time with Bouchet. And yes, I was amongst the many who first found an interest in building in the Sloane book. |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
I am grateful for this thread, as well. I found the book in a friend's library in the late 70s--early 80s, and borrowed it for a few weeks until I could get my own copy. Like so many, I built my first guitar using the methods set forth in this book. I have never pursued this craft beyond my own hobby practice, but Mr. Sloane definitely convinced me that I could make a guitar, and he definitely inspired me to try to do everything better. Good insights all the way around. I have really enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks so much. |
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| Author: | sadowsky [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
I first read Irving's Classical Guitar Construction after I discovered it in the Whole Earth Catalog in 1971. It changed my life and I quit work on a PhD in Psychobiology to become a guitar maker. I have lots of info on Irving Sloane, if anyone is interested. Irving lived across the street from my wife Robin when she was growing up in Ridgewood NJ. She remembers watching him build through his basement windows and when he finished a new guitar, he would play it for Robin and her sister. I met Irving in the early 80's. At that time he had been living in Belgium with his 2nd wife and that marriage had just ended. He moved to a small house he kept in upstate NY and completed his design work on the Sloane tuners which he licensed to Stewart MacDonald. He licensed his upright bass gear to David Gage. Robin and I encouraged Irving to take Robin's Mom out for a date. They fell in love like a couple of teenagers and had more than 10 wonderful years together before Irving died from cancer. I have two or three of his guitars, a collection of his planes and a lot of his photos from his books (which he shot himself). His guitars were nice, all things considered. But he was not a great guitar maker. He was a genuine renaissance man who greatest skill lay with making the molds for his planes and his tuning gear plates. He was a graphic designer who did many album covers for Blue Note during the 50s and 60s. He made beautiful jewelry. He was a very good photographer. There wasn't too much he could not do that involved metal and or wood. With regard to his tuning plate comments to George Wilson, Irving was convinced that instrument making was an "art" and not a "science". We frequently sparred on this matter, as I had a science background and I felt the gathering of empirical evidence as one built instruments was the essence of the scientific method. I also was a close friend of Richard Schneider and Irving and Richard used to go at each other like a cobra and a mongoose. I feel fortunate to have loved both of them. Roger |
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| Author: | jason c [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Wow! That's great that you're a member on here Roger. It would be great if you'd come by the up and coming archtop sub-forum. I would love to ask you some question regarding laminating tops. Jason |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Roger, Thanks so much for posting. Best David |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Roger; thanks for sharing this info with us ! If you can post some pics of Irvings guitars you have that would be great! Also any info you can share with us about him besides what you've posted here would be nice for us old timers that grew & learned from his books. I liked the fact that he had pics of great makers guitars with their demensions in his classical book. Mike |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Wouldn't it be fun to know how many people cut their building teeth on Irving's books? I know it was one of the things that really peaked my interest, and made me think I could actually do it, even if it didn't happen for more than 25 years!  Thanks for posting your information and thoughts, Roger. I look forward to any other information you might share with us. |
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| Author: | sadowsky [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
Here is the memorial I wrote about Irving for the GAL: http://www.luth.org/memoriam/i-sloane.htm roger |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
george wilson wrote: Irving Sloan visited me in my Musical Instrument Maker's Shop in Colonial Williamsburg many years ago. I have no idea when it was by now. At the time he was going to do a book on guitar repair,and was looking for a place to take his pictures in. We only made 18th.C. instruments,of course,in the museum setting. I could not have tied up the shop for months while he took pictures,anyway. The shop belonged to the museum,not me,and we had to be open to the public,and keep out modern things like people with cameras and no costume! He went to Martin eventually. I was struck with surprise when he said "You aren't one of those who believe in tuning violin plates are you?" I replied that I certainly did tune them,and explained why,though I thought that his mind was already made up. After that,I decided that he liked to make books more than making many instruments. Some guys make instruments,others write books,and that is the truth MOST of the time. Back in the 60's I had found his classical guitar making book useful,and adopted his method of making molds with necks on them,a very useful way of easily assuring neck alignment. I had been building since 1954,but his new-to me information was useful. I think Sloane was a good engineer in the way he went about his jig making,etc.. I think we can forgive him George. Not every Violin maker tunes the plates and of course there are always 'fashions' in the way folk approach instrument making. I've been told by a very reliable source that some violin makers were soaking their finished instruments in Linseed oil. These days it has to come complete with some mineralised coating. I have both his making and repair books. At the time, books on Guitar making/repair were thin on the ground. I guess we have to thank him for that. I'm quite sure that those books were a lot more work than most people realise. Fond memories. I was disappointed that he did not understand the practical,and widely practiced tuning of violin plates. Maybe his Norwegian folk fiddle was the only violin he ever made? I think we can forgive him George. Not every Violin maker tunes the plates and of course there are always 'fashions' in the way folk approach instrument making. I've been told by a very reliable source that some violin makers were soaking their finished instruments in Linseed oil. These days it has to come complete with some mineralised coating. I have both his making and repair books. At the time, books on Guitar making/repair were thin on the ground. I guess we have to thank him for that. I'm quite sure that those books were a lot more work than most people realise. Fond memories. |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
I wasn't really criticizing Irving about the tuning of violin plates. I was just rather surprised that a well known author and craftsman, some of whose methods I had adopted,was rather "passionate" about the way he said that he thought the practice was not useful. I got the impression that he had not thought out the process well enough. You would have had to be there,I guess. It was the way he said it! I always tuned my violin plates,and never had a violin turn out with wolf notes. It just made sense to me to make the plates a semitone apart to neutralize the body frequency. Of course,I was not making violins that were in the folk music category,where nearly anything can be done. You should get to go behind the scenes at the Smithsonian as I often did. They have a huge number of instruments,most of which will never be seen. Their exhibiting area is small,and you will only see important instruments,unless they had a special showing of folk instruments. Even then,you'd only scratch the surface. I think there must have been many families who thought that something that grandpaw made should be given to a museum. We had some in Collections in Williamsburg. Irving was obviously a skilled engineer in the way he worked out solutions on how to do things. I found his books useful. I heard about soaking instruments in linseed oil in the early 70's. If an instrument had been so treated,it would not be difficult to see it by looking inside-unless it was also finished inside. About linseed oil: It is true that so many old plants are no longer grown. This probably includes some species of flax. Common vegetables you buy in the market are very standardized. Makes me wonder what the Italians really used,and maybe we cannot get it today for varnish. |
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| Author: | sadowsky [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Irving Sloane Revisited |
george wilson wrote: I wasn't really criticizing Irving about the tuning of violin plates. I was just rather surprised that a well known author and craftsman, some of whose methods I had adopted,was rather "passionate" about the way he said that he thought the practice was not useful. I got the impression that he had not thought out the process well enough. That certainly sounds like the Irving I knew! roger |
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