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binding channel tearout
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25812		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Chris Oliver [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  binding channel tearout
Ouch... the guitar that just keeps taking... this is the guitar that had fallen on a screwdriver handle and broke the top. Here the new top is in place and the binding channel cutting didn't go as planned.

I have never had this much tear out in a binding channel. I'm pretty sure I can't hide it... is there a fix for this without: replacing the top(again), widening binding channel, inlaying something here, exorcism?... ie... is there a standard fix for this like cutting along the grain and gluing in a piece of spruce, then rerouting, etc.. all ideas entertained, even those based on alien technology, black magic and martial arts or a combination of all three!

thanks..

Attachment:
binding_channel_tearout.jpg
Author:  Steve Saville [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tear out
It might make a nice black top or burst it.


More important then the fix is how to avoid it in the future.
Was the router going with or against the grain?
Did you shellac the top before routing?
Was your router bit clean and sharp?
Did you move at a constant speed, fast enough to produce a nice and even chip, yet slow enough to avoid tear out?
Did you recite some religious slogan or chant repeatedly when routing?
Did you give money to Haiti, abused women's shelter, homeless, or orphanages before routing? [:Y:]
Was the body held firm when routing?
Is the router on a sturdy platform?

Now for the fix - Is this for you or a client? Do you just want to keep moving or make it look perfect? To make it look perfect, see the first line of this post or do a re-top. If you have the cut off, you can try to cut out a piece that will match and HHG it in place or use LMI white glue, but either way will show.
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Go for a wider perf design and re cut?
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Chris lots of good advice here to help you fix or redo the tear-out but I wanted to offer you a method to avoid this in the first place.

This diagram, compliments of Stew-Mac shows one how to do the climb cuts with the router first and then circumnavigate the guitar body in the direction shown. This is to prevent/reduce tear-out and when I started building I copied this diagram and I keep it with my binding router bit set. When I route a guitar now this diagram gets taped on the wall where I am working for reference.

Attachment:
1298_3.jpg


Something else that I am not so sure will help but some of us apply shellac to the binding area and approx 2" onto the top. It's believed, though I can't prove it...., that the shellac will help the spruce not get the fuzzies where you cut it if your bit is not perfectly sharp. Another benefit of shellacing this area is that if you use binding tape the tape can be warmed with a hair dryer prior to pulling it off at 45 degrees to the grain and in concert these three things greatly help reduce the risk of lifting top fibers when removing the binding tape.

Good luck
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Frank Cousins wrote:
Go for a wider perf design and re cut?


Sure - that's a possibility too.
Author:  bluescreek [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
If you watch my binding video ,Hesh and I agree we climb cut. That lowers the risk or tear out considerably . Still it isn't that hard to fix , and Todd and I do the repair the same way . Also ,you can always add a purfling strip.
Learning is fun , it is discovery that can make you think.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Looks pretty wide already, and the tearout is simply huge. I guess the only way is to wing it. If you do it right, it will be absolutely invisible.

I climb cut too, it is especially important for the way I do it with a gramil and chisels. So always start at the widest parts of the bouts and end at the waist, end and neck blocks. Hesh' first drawing lacks 4 of the 8 movements, but they are just the mirror of the ones drawn.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Todd has this right. It's a relatively easy fix, especially if you have the off cut that will match and line up with the damaged area. My approach would be to scalpel just at the side of a hard grain line and chisel off to half depth of your top - or the to the depth of your binding channel. It should be virtually impossible to see the 'repair' once complete.
Of course as, others have already mentioned, widening the channel is the other option.
Author:  Chris Oliver [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Thanks everyone for your ideas.

I should have mentioned.. this tear out occurred in a climb cut using a Ribbecke style binding machine. I have used shellac as a sealer on some and not on others and had always gotten similar results when cutting my binding channels.

Steve... other than the shellac and chanting, I was good on all your suggestions... though I believe I may have made some religious comment following the incident. Sorry to note that bad things more often invoke communication whereas good outcomes promote complacency.

There will be no black tops... not never, just not this one. No offense Hesh. By the way, nice to see you and dreadnoughts getting along marvelously. :)

My guess was that I would do as Todd, Alexandru, Michael and John suggested but wanted to fish for alternative practices if available.

thanks again...
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Chris Oliver wrote:
...I should have mentioned.. this tear out occurred in a climb cut using a Ribbecke style binding machine. ...


Ah, there it is...Ribbecke style!
Shoulda gone with Williams! laughing6-hehe beehive
Author:  lactose [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
On the drawing above, one of those cuts involves moving the router backwards (blade edge meeting wood the same direction as the router motion), no ?
Author:  Tom West [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Chris: Steve Saville may have had the answer to a repeat performance. Sharp,clean bits,perhaps one that has not been used before. I like to use high speed steel bits as I fine they generally have a sharper edge but they are hard to find nowadays.A slow even feed also helps. Todd has given you a neat way to repair. Good luck on the next one.
Tom
Author:  Chris Oliver [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Wow.. after a little work I got a flawless graft on the top...

Attachment:
top-ear-graft1.jpg



shaved, sanded flush and then re-routed. Here it is...

Attachment:
top-ear-graft2.jpg


Now I am positive I need an exorcist to work on this with me... if you'll notice... the ledge is now too wide for the purfling... turns out the bearing rode up on the binding ledge and widened it an extra 1/16" for me... and now the problem is larger than it was before. [headinwall]

No worries... it builds character, right?
Author:  jeffreyyong [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
I was supposed to just add a herringbone but have the bearing came out while routing the channel, so here is the result of it after i have to route a bigger slot to cover up.
jeff
Author:  Chris Oliver [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Thanks Jeff... you should post some close-ups on that fretboard inlay and the rosette.

As for the adi dread...

Here I had to remove quite a bit of top to get all the gap out...

Attachment:
top-ear-graft3.jpg


... next, I no longer had enough cut away top to fit the area that needed replaced, so I found
some adi brace wood from the same stock... similar grain and same color. I sanded the graft and top cut-out
square to mate perfectly. To accomplish this mating I used some 120 grit pressure sensative sandpaper
stuck to a freshly squared block of maple. I glued this piece in using hot hide glue and used clamping
pressure.

Here is the piece set into place before gluing.

Attachment:
top-ear-graft4.jpg


Here is the graft glued into place, trimmed but standing proud of the top.

Attachment:
top-ear-graft5.jpg


Here is the piece shaved down and sanded some.

Attachment:
top-ear-graft6.jpg


Voila! err.. um I mean "Git'er done!"... afterall it's not a parlor guitar, it's a dread. :) Here is the
herringbone purfling and maple binding taped into place.

Attachment:
top-ear-graft7.jpg


While this operation has finally proved successful and will most likely be completely invisible
under a finish. I still have plenty of opportunity to bring this possessed project back to the
forum.

By the way, a friend has already named the guitar, "Christine". Let's hope the new owner won't
be affected the same way King's character was... [Twilight Zone music playing in background. Fade out.]
Author:  jeffreyyong [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Hi Chris,

here are 2 version of the inlays, one is wood and the other MOP.

( Sorry guys, don't meant to hijacked this thread. )
Author:  Chris Oliver [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding channel tearout
Jeffrey, wow!
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