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I agree with the Websters definition.
"made by hand, not by machine; made by a process requiring manual skills"

MRS wrote:

I agree with the Websters definition.
"made by hand, not by machine; made by a process requiring manual skills"

Certainly not enough definition here. What constitutes a machine? What are manual skills? Is a router a machine or just an electric tool? To me a machine is a mechanical device (electric or fuel powered) which has many moving parts to output one product from possibly several others.

In the strictest sense of the words "hand made", almost nothing is truly hand made anymore. Even a sweater starts out with fabricated wool (99% of the time), colored, spun by a machine. Yet one person can knit a sweater to what ever size and style they see fit.

Maybe "hand made" in the sense of luthiery should be classified as one individual controlling the final outcome of an instrument. However the components come together maybe shouldn't matter. But the design, styling, color scheme, attention to detail, QC is all left in the "hands" of the creator (singular). This definition may very well eliminate the need for argument (pipe dream I know).

CNC..No manual skills needed. By manual skills i mean where the tool is guided by hand motion.

I'm not sure I see the value of this conversation (I'm not saying it doesn't have value - I'm saying I don't see it ... maybe Trev can illuminate?). Use what you need to make the best guitar you can. Know what your clients care about and do the best to deliver that to them.

MRS wrote:

CNC..No manual skills needed. By manual skills i mean where the tool is guided by hand motion.

Good jigs guide the tool, and you're just the motor that pushes it around...no manual skills needed.

Bob Garrish wrote:

MRS wrote:

CNC..No manual skills needed. By manual skills i mean where the tool is guided by hand motion.

Good jigs guide the tool, and you're just the motor that pushes it around...no manual skills needed.

Not true since you have to set the jigs up and there is a good chance you also made them. I have made many jigs and templates but I'll also admit i bought some too.

Author:	Parser [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:	"Handmade" Guitars
OK here it is - what does "handmade" mean when it comes to guitars? a luthier should use only that which God has given them (hands, teeth, fingernails) All non-powered traditionally manufactured hand tools only (no plugs, no batteries and no machine made tools) Same as above, only mass produced hand tools are OK (most tools are made via some sort of automated equipment!) Limited power tools: thickness sanders, random orbital sanders, spray guns, planes, and saws only. No other power tools allowed! All non-CNC power tools (routers, etc.) All tools, CNC included, so long as you draw the parts, program the parts, and cut them out *Parts can be purchased anywhere by any means but the luthier has to assemble, sand, and setup the guitar Have fun, Trev

Author:	James W B [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
How about if each of us decides what hand made means to themselves. James

Author:	Parser [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
LOL - I'm interested to see a WIDE range of responses.

Author:	Laurent Brondel [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
Handmade as in: Built by one person making conscious and thoughtful decisions every step of the way. Or: At the opposite spectrum of a production model. You're stirring a dangerous pot here…

Author:	JJ Donohue [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
Actually, it may be best left to the musician to determine that which best suits his interest and needs. Of course, that assumes that the builder appropriately represent himself and his experience.

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Author:	coke_zero [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
I guess handmade is what each person defines it as. I would really like to see a build from start to finish without any electrical tools, just simply to see it happen. For me handmade would be pretty much what most people here do, build a vast majority of the guitar using elbow grease, clamps and hand tools. Using things like a bandsaw & router are not always needed but save so much time. I would rather commission a guitar when the builder uses a router to do the binding, a power sander/thickness sander to thickness wood and a bandsaw to cut out the guitar top/back than pay an extra £300-500 for the sheer amount of hours more it would take to do it by hand. My bandsaw broke months ago and I can't really afford to buy a new one at the moment. I cut my guitar top today by hand and what would have taken maybe 2 minutes or less took 5-10 times that to do as accurately. Like most things, we have to trade off certain things to keep manufacturing costs viable. I could buy a mass produced Ford for £10,000 on the other hand I could buy a hand built Lamborghini for £200,000. Then again, I could go half way and buy a BMW for £50,000 which is the best of both worlds I guess.

Author:	James W B [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
Well said JJ. James

Author:	Dave Stewart [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
Strictly? made by hand, rather than by machine: Practically? made by a craftsman, by hand, using any (non-automated) techniques/tools available to him past or contemporary (just like Amati or Stradivari onward!) It's the "non-automated" that everyone's bangin' on about! As a exercise, define it as if it were 1960!

Author:	wbergman [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
Dictionary definitons go out the window when each trade or profession defines jargon terms for use in that trade. The term "hand made" is often used for advertisement purposes without any honest adherance to what you or I might expect by this term. For me, a definiton of a quality hand made instrument does not require that power tools are omitted. It does not even imply that only one person worked on the guitar. It sort of implies that one skilled craftman took personal responsibility to make sure that everything was built as best as possible, which would always include some hands on work by skilled individuals at key steps. I have seen completely hand made guitars from Mexico that were suitable only for wall decorations. They were priced cheap and not represented as having any quality. They were hand made souveneirs. I have also heard of some of the top luthiers working in their kitchens and using only hand saws, scrapers and knives to make guitars that sell for many thousands of dollars. So, hand made probably doesn't really mean anything important.

Author:	MRS [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
I agree with the Websters definition. "made by hand, not by machine; made by a process requiring manual skills"

Author:	Rod True [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
MRS wrote: I agree with the Websters definition. "made by hand, not by machine; made by a process requiring manual skills" Certainly not enough definition here. What constitutes a machine? What are manual skills? Is a router a machine or just an electric tool? To me a machine is a mechanical device (electric or fuel powered) which has many moving parts to output one product from possibly several others. In the strictest sense of the words "hand made", almost nothing is truly hand made anymore. Even a sweater starts out with fabricated wool (99% of the time), colored, spun by a machine. Yet one person can knit a sweater to what ever size and style they see fit. Maybe "hand made" in the sense of luthiery should be classified as one individual controlling the final outcome of an instrument. However the components come together maybe shouldn't matter. But the design, styling, color scheme, attention to detail, QC is all left in the "hands" of the creator (singular). This definition may very well eliminate the need for argument (pipe dream I know).

Author:	Parser [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
Rod, that sounds entirely too reasonable! I'm with you all the way. Trev

Author:	Lars Stahl [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
I was in Dubai a few month ago. I went to a taylor store (clothes) haha. And I found the fabric I liked and the taylor made me some nice clothings. he was using a sawing machine !! as this is what most of the taylors use that makes "handmade clothings" I he would have used a CNC cutter to make the clothings for me I am pretty sure I woulod not have called him a taylor and definetely not handmade !! seems like you all found something that bugs me huh. Lars

Author:	WudWerkr [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
This thread obviously has variying degrees of the definition. I would call "HandMade" any unit that is built from scratch start to finish by a individual using the common tools of the day . Therefore , If a shop uses a cnc to shape a neck , and also does the rest of the work himself . yes , hand made . If all he does is run cnc and make necks all day to pass them down the line to the next builder? " production line " not so much . " My Opinion Only " The simple fact is that the person PURCHASING the guitar will be the one to decide what he wants to call HandMade I guess .

Author:	Geordie Adams [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
hi Trev, I threw this one in at collage a couple o’ weeks ago when a tutor brought in his jigs, forms, routing set-ups / templates and table saw attachments to demonstrate and stimulate ideas of our own. Now, looking at all this power tool driven equipment I thought of how he described his building style - “I employ these traditional Spanish hand made construction methods. The guitars I make I am told have the “Granada sound”. Ok, I enjoy the devils advocate roll and suggested I detected a post industrial Glasgow dialect in his guitars voice - that didn't go down well. As you can imagine a lively exchange followed. If it plays good and sounds good - fine, the next part is equally elusive. yours Geordie

Author:	ChuckB [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
I don't believe that anyone is building guitars strictly by hand (handmade). We all use machines. Remember the six simple machines,,, lever, inclined plane, wheel & axle, screw, wedge, and pulley. These simple machines form our basic tools. So, if you want to build a guitar completely by hand, you would have a hard time getting started....good luck cutting a tree down with just your hands! Chuck

Author:	truckjohn [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
Ok... So... Here's a Devil's Advocate sort of proposition... Say a well known Luthier's most popular model is a "Pre-War D-28" -- and he "Hand makes" this faithfully and accurately from tracings and measurements from originals... Now Martin steps in and makes their own "Exact Replica" of a Pre-War D-28 on their factory assembly line... and it just so happens that the Martin Model and the Luthiers model are exactly identical in Fit/Finish, Tone, Volume, and Playability... that Both have so accurately and faithfully reproduced the 1936 D-28... that they are inseparable except for the Label and Headstock inlay.... just that 1 comes off of an assembly line and the other comes out of a 1-man shop. What now? Which one is really better? I think things along this line are actually fairly common... because many customers really want some faithful reproduction of some old and well regarded instrument (Make it sound like a Pre-War D-28 or like a 1928 L-0 or like Torres La Leona or like Segovia's Ramirez!), rather than a "New" expression of the Luthier's art with its own individual voice Thanks John

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Author:	Parser [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
LOL - I love it Geordie! Well played...

Author:	MRS [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
CNC..No manual skills needed. By manual skills i mean where the tool is guided by hand motion. Programing the cnc machine or loading a file doesn't count. Now don't take this for me being anti CNC because i'm not. I would like to own one. Rod True wrote: MRS wrote: I agree with the Websters definition. "made by hand, not by machine; made by a process requiring manual skills" Certainly not enough definition here. What constitutes a machine? What are manual skills? Is a router a machine or just an electric tool? To me a machine is a mechanical device (electric or fuel powered) which has many moving parts to output one product from possibly several others. In the strictest sense of the words "hand made", almost nothing is truly hand made anymore. Even a sweater starts out with fabricated wool (99% of the time), colored, spun by a machine. Yet one person can knit a sweater to what ever size and style they see fit. Maybe "hand made" in the sense of luthiery should be classified as one individual controlling the final outcome of an instrument. However the components come together maybe shouldn't matter. But the design, styling, color scheme, attention to detail, QC is all left in the "hands" of the creator (singular). This definition may very well eliminate the need for argument (pipe dream I know).

Author:	Bob Garrish [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
MRS wrote: CNC..No manual skills needed. By manual skills i mean where the tool is guided by hand motion. Good jigs guide the tool, and you're just the motor that pushes it around...no manual skills needed.

Author:	Parser [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
Filippo Morelli wrote: I'm not sure I see the value of this conversation (I'm not saying it doesn't have value - I'm saying I don't see it ... maybe Trev can illuminate?). Use what you need to make the best guitar you can. Know what your clients care about and do the best to deliver that to them. I have three points that I was attempting to make: 1) all acoustics are predominantly "hand made" 2) We are all benefitting from the day and age we live in whether we are using the latest and best power tools or whether we are simply buying kiln dried wood from across the world. 3) No method of construction is inherently superior or inferior. Best, Trev

Author:	SimonF [ Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
This is an incredibly straightforward debate. There are two separate thoughts fighting here. One is semantically accurate and focused on the "traditional" and "proper" use of the word. The other deals with the changing world of technology and how it affects the artisan. We use handmade loosely to describe products that carefully and lovingly made by an individual or in some cases, a very small shop. With the advent of the production model and assembly line -- there is a growing appeal to doing things the "old way". The term handmade is often applied to these "artisan made" products. It is an effective term that communicates what it needs to for most audiences. The use of handmade when applied to most artisan-produced items is semantically incorrect. Handmade simply means made with "hand tools". It is really simple -- hand tools don't have motors!!! This means that a guitar built with routers, table saws, etc... cannot technically be "handmade". However, you will find that applying the term handmade to your instruments is the most effective way to communicate to people what we do.

Author:	MRS [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
Bob Garrish wrote: MRS wrote: CNC..No manual skills needed. By manual skills i mean where the tool is guided by hand motion. Good jigs guide the tool, and you're just the motor that pushes it around...no manual skills needed. Not true since you have to set the jigs up and there is a good chance you also made them. I have made many jigs and templates but I'll also admit i bought some too.

Author:	Bob Garrish [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
MRS wrote: Bob Garrish wrote: MRS wrote: CNC..No manual skills needed. By manual skills i mean where the tool is guided by hand motion. Good jigs guide the tool, and you're just the motor that pushes it around...no manual skills needed. Not true since you have to set the jigs up and there is a good chance you also made them. I have made many jigs and templates but I'll also admit i bought some too. You have to set the CNC up, as well, in much the same way (work location as well as tool compensation). Loading a piece and pushing the tool is no more skilled than loading the piece and pushing the button. I can design a jig to replicate -any- operation I perform on the CNC. Pushing a router to and fro inside any of them wouldn't require any more skill than starting the machine, just more work. Anything a CNC can do can be made into unskilled work through jig design. Therefore, any work that can be replaced by a CNC is equivalent to jig operation, and jig operation is unskilled. Using a suboptimal jig can require skill, and doing the same process jig-free can certainly require a lot, but I'm going to assume no reasonable person would use a bad jig on purpose nor forgo the use of a good one when available.

Author:	Frank Cousins [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: "Handmade" Guitars
At the risk of adding more fuel to the fire, surely the issue should be more about the final quality? There are some aspects that simply cannnopt be made (yet) by machine - the thing that makes the difference between a superbly built 'Manufactured' Guitar one that his given personal attention... the time that is taken on those things that might add 5-10% to the overall quality of the tone - the tap tuning, the subtle shavings and the experience of listening to that top before its glued on - the selection of woods etc to achieve a specific tone? Simply put, the time taken on those things is often not possible in the factory.CNC and modern techniques are great for certain tasks and can achieve an accuracy and consistency that would be difficult to do by hand (fuel added here) - but those items that seperate the finest of handcrafted instruments from the best factory guitars is simply that personal touch - teh unique voicing that an individual builder is able to impart on teh instrument...surely?