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Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25579		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ed Haney [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
My son and I framed the wall for my shop this past weekend and I'm meeting an Electrician tomorrow morning to review some power and lighting needs. So I am quickly getting to the point of finalizing a plan for the floor finish. I want to do this before installing my pre-framed insulated door so that I can get the right height above the floor for the door. I need some input on what you have learned about flooring for comfort. Flooring insulation is NOT much of a factor for me. Its not cold in winter here (Houston area) and the coolness of the concrete only helps the A/C. The A/C runs every month of the year here (Yes, heat and A/C in the same week much of the winter.) What are some options for systems to place over concrete floors to make it easier to stand on? Some I have heard are:

1. Rubber or foam pads directly on the concrete in front of benches and machines. (This is where I was headed, but a cost effective improvement would be nice.)
2. Plywood over plywood over rigid insulation (floating system - but again, I only need insulation on the floor if it is to soften things up.)
3. Plywood nailed over wooden slates glued to floor
4. ??

Your experience would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Ed
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
I have concrete floors. I find that I tend to trip over foam pads and such at the work stations. I would like a wood floor but cannot afford to install one. I just mainly spend a little more on comfy shoes and I am fine.
Author:  Robert Dunn [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
Hey Ed, A job I was on recently, I saw the builder had gotten these 4'x8', maybe 5'x10', rubber/plastic mats. They were about 1/4-3/8" thick. Not too soft. Pretty comfortable. I have not seen the guy to ask what or where, but I want some also, so I'll let you know.
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
Ed,

I think 1x2 preassure treated sleepers 16" on center screwed to the concrete with a 3/4" plywood deck would be the most cost effective way to go.
Around here (Chicago area) I recommend not using a vapor barrier under a wood floor over concrete. Any moisture in the concrete has to be allowed to escape and it can't dry to the bottom as the ground under the concrete will have more moisture in it than the concrete. I do not know if this holds true in your part of the country. I've never been to the great state of Texas and have no idea what your soil conditions are.

Steve
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
I bought the checker plate rolls of vinyl garage flooring from Costco a few years back. It's easy to clean and looks great too.
Stationary tools on mobile bases roll fine on it. It's not wood, but it's a lot better than bare concrete.
Author:  Rod True [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
I just glue some of that anti fatigue foam to the soles of my shoes and cut them to sie. It goes wherever I do ;)

I try to sit if I can so my feet are not on the concrete floor. But I do have 2x2 anti fatigue mats around all my machines.
Author:  Doug O [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
I moved into a new shop earlier this year after 15 years in the old one that had a concrete floor. Some sort of a cushioned floor in the new shop was a requirement for me. I chose to install a floating system of 1" foam on the concrete with 2 layers of T&G plywood over that. The plywood is screwed to itself, but there are no fasteners or glue attaching the system to the concrete sub floor, which allows the whole thing to float. I really like the result. The floor is extremely solid yet still has plenty of give to it, providing the cushioning that I was looking for. No rubber mats to sweep around, is relatively low profile, and its very simple to remove if the need ever arises.

Doug
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
Wood or other 'soft' flooring has the huge advantage of not damaging/breaking tools which are dropped.

I have concrete floors in my shop(s) and I hate 'em but I'm too lazy to start all over and install wood flooring, so the foam squares will have to do. If I were starting from 'scratch', it would be wood floors for sure.

Good shoes (sneakers or 'walking shoes' ), and a work stool make it a bit easier on the legs, no matter what the flooring.
Cheers
John
Author:  woodsworth [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
Doug O, i really like that idea. I wish i had a flat floor to do it on. Who ever built my shop decided in their infinite wisdom to pour it in six goes without the use of any power troweling. 40 x 20 feet is a lot of concrete to jack hammer out. If i can get to the point where i can do it though I will. Concrete floors are terrible to work on. If i could do anything i'd jackhammer the whole lot out and suspend a wood framed floor and use 1 inch T and G plywood. It would give me the room to hide dust extraction piped and Hrv and environmental control piping and ventilation for the floor.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
Stephen's advice to get/wear super comfy shoes is what I do as well as a strategically positioned mat in front of my primary bench. I also sit on my bum as much as possible too.

My last shop had white carpet.... and was a spare bedroom in a condo. Now that my benches are on concrete I can't tell how much better it is to do many things including hammering frets. Before the carpet under the benches absorbed the blows and my frets did not seat well....
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
PT 2 x 4 ripped in half for sleepers, blue foam insulation 2' on centre between the sleepers, 3/4" T&G pine plywood on top. Here in Maine I *absolutely* put 6 mil plastic vapour barrier between the concrete slab and insulation. Works like a charm and took 1/2 day of work (with the help of a friend to set the ply sheets).
Author:  Ed Haney [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
Laurent Brondel wrote:
PT 2 x 4 ripped in half for sleepers, blue foam insulation 2' on centre between the sleepers, 3/4" T&G pine plywood on top. Here in Maine I *absolutely* put 6 mil plastic vapour barrier between the concrete slab and insulation. Works like a charm and took 1/2 day of work (with the help of a friend to set the ply sheets).


Laurent,

Thanks for the help. I think your approach is good.

Could you clarify for me. Did you rip 2x4s into 1.5" x 1.75" (actual dimensions) pieces and then put the 1.75" dimension against the concrete? If so, did you use 2 layers of 3/4" Owens Corning R4 foam (1.5" total) in the 1.5" height of space?

Is your 3/4" T&G Plywood actually touching/crushing the foam? Are you concerned about the foam breaking down from physical forces and creating foam dust?

Did you screw the sleepers to the T&G and then let the flooring float on the concrete without fasteners or adhesive to hold it down (this is my favored approach for ease of repair, removal and thermal movement.)

Not trying to "poke holes", just trying to understand since I think your approach has good merits

Thanks,
Ed
Author:  Hank Mauel [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
I put the T&G plywood over the foam used in floating hardwood floor installations, which in turn was on top of 6 mil plastic vapor barrier. You can see the upturned edges of the barrier in the photo Didn't need insulation out here on the left coast. The floor has been great on the legs...you can feel ever so slightly the give when walking on it. And the plywood has saved countless chisel resharpenings, if you get my drift! ;)
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
Just built a new shop. Was going to go 3/4" T&G ply over 2x4 sleepers laid flat. When I looked at all the issues with door thresholds and the floor outlets I wanted, I decided that a lot less money could buy a lot of good rubber mats.

But I did put one of the new hi-tech vapor barriers under the slab. There is no comparison between the new stuff and the old visqueen. With an old slab you have a moisture problem, and I don't know the solution.
Author:  Dennis Leahy [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
If you can't put a floor over the concrete, these are nice: U-Line 'Cadillac' Anti-fatigue Mats, along with comfy shoes.

I love Rod True's solution! May have to add that.

Dennis
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
Ed Haney wrote:
Could you clarify for me. Did you rip 2x4s into 1.5" x 1.75" (actual dimensions) pieces and then put the 1.75" dimension against the concrete? If so, did you use 2 layers of 3/4" Owens Corning R4 foam (1.5" total) in the 1.5" height of space?

Sorry for the confusion, I ripped the PT 2x4 in 3/4" strips.
Ed Haney wrote:
Is your 3/4" T&G Plywood actually touching/crushing the foam? Are you concerned about the foam breaking down from physical forces and creating foam dust?

No, the foam is exactly the same height as the sleepers and is hard enough to support the floor between the sleepers. You can do 16" or 24" on centre, and will need to rip your foam accordingly.
I have benches and power tools on the floor, it works like a charm and my back is thanking me everyday.
Ed Haney wrote:
Did you screw the sleepers to the T&G and then let the flooring float on the concrete without fasteners or adhesive to hold it down (this is my favored approach for ease of repair, removal and thermal movement.)

The sleepers were nailed to the concrete with a powder gun, the T&G screwed to the sleepers with 1 1/4" drywall screws. The other thing to consider is to frame your doors accordingly as this will add 1 1/2" to your floor. Again, the vapour barrier is a must here in Maine, it greatly helps with keeping heat and especially RH constant.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
I am of a bit different view. I have worked in and owned woodworking shops for nearly 30 years and all have had wood floors. For the past 3 years my little space that I put together (330 sq ft) has a concrete floor. I put click together WalMart mats around bench. I am about to start a new shop this spring and plan all concrete floors for the main floor and the loft of course will be wood floor. What I like about a power troweled concrete floor is how flat it is, how smooth it is, and how easy to clean and keep clean it is. All of the power tools will be on the main floor, save for another bandsaw and another drill press (I have two of each). I am bouncing back and forth on whether the main bench will be upstairs or on the main level, but I have thought long and hard on the main floor finish, painted concrete!

Shane
Author:  Robert Dunn [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
5'x10' rubber base, with plastic/vinyl skin. Gym flooring. Goes under treadmills and weight benches and such. seams can be heat welded like commercial vinyl sheet products. slight texture on the surface. With welded seems, should be easy to sweep. Also would act as a vapour barrier. Anti microbial I believe also. This would be my ideal shop flooring. still looking for source and price though. Will let you know. thickness should not be much issue for door thresholds.
Author:  Robert Dunn [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
not exactly what I was talking about, but same idea
http://www.rubberflooringinc.com/gym-flooring.html
$1.45sf is pretty cheap!
Author:  Ed Haney [ Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
Many thanks to all who have participated with their methods and experience for how to make concrete shop floors more comfortable on the body. I have learned much and will put it to use. [:Y:]

Thanks again,
Ed
Author:  york [ Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop flooring over concrete that is easy on feet/legs?
I have heard people have had good results with rubber barn stall mats available at Tractor Supply Store. They have a variety of matts. The stall matts are very heavy -- I think something like 4x6.
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