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Fish glue -again !
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25552		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mike Collins [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Fish glue -again !
One of my students cut the purf. channels around his rose and fitted the 4 wood strips into it.
He could not get them out without breaking them and the channel was not sealed for CA use.
So we thinned some Fish glue with water and brushed it on the rose with a foam brush and let it set overnight.
It was dry today & sanding it down revealed no breaks and the fit was tight & perfect.

Plus the glue sealed some small irregularities in the central part of the rose.
And the glue added a nice patina to the woods.
Mike
;)
Author:  Steve Saville [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Thank you for that tip Mike. I like everything about fish glue, except the dry time.
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Me too but add the aroma to that list.....
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Thanks for that thought Mike. The more I work on building, the lower tech I get!
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
That's a great tip, Mike. Can't wait to try it. CA is so irritating to me, and I hate working in a mask for long periods of time. Glad to know thinned fish glue will wick into a rosette. Will HHG do that?
Author:  Mike Collins [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Waddy HHG will do the same.
But Fish is so much easier to use !

Mc
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Hey! Did I buy the wrong fish glue??? Mine doesn't smell bad at all!
And it works great in many applications.
Nice trick Mike. Have to keep that one in mind.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Fish glue smells fine. Not like fish at all. Some folks probably think hide glue smells bad too. Just has an earthy smell.
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
My shop dogs are VERY interested in the smell of fish glue. The first time I used it they were all over me. It sure smells better than CA glue.
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
OK, maybe I should say it's not terrible, I guess it smells like a collagen
And believe me, it sure does not stop me from using it, it smells like a good, strong glue joint
so I'm not complaining. I have yet to have any issues with fish glue in terms of performance.
I just reglued an ivory bridge, which can be a bit challenging, no problems whatsoever.

I think I have olfactory issues.... It is made from the membrane of the air bladder of Sturgeon
and other fish so it's not designed to have a great smell, small price to pay.

How long do you think a quart can of fish glue can survive in a fridge? I fill bottles as I need
them but leave the container in the fridge. One year?
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Mike Collins wrote:
[...] So we thinned some Fish glue with water and brushed it on the rose with a foam brush and let it set overnight.
It was dry today & sanding it down revealed no breaks and the fit was tight & perfect. [...]
Mike Collins wrote:
Waddy HHG will do the same. [...]

I made a similar experience with hot hide glue when I had to do a tricky multiple top crack repair on a tiny instrument (a charango) with even tinier sound holes - I only could clamp and reinforce the main cracks, while the other ones magically disappeared (closed) after brushing some really liquid (=nicely hot) hide glue in and letting set is for one day.

Mike Collins wrote:
[...] But Fish is so much easier to use !

Nice to know, thank you!
I already read several times of fish glue (more time left to work with than hhg allows, right?)
Which type of fish glue do you use, and where do you get it from?

The only fish glue I could find (didn't buy it though) is prized something above what I could afford as a "daily routine glue" (click :roll: ). Is it really meant to limit fish glue on "Sunday gluing jobs" or are there more economical alternatives?

Edit
Oh, now I see this:
BruceHerrmann wrote:
[...] It is made from the membrane of the air bladder of Sturgeon
and other fish so it's not designed to have a great smell, small price to pay. [...]

So the same question goes to you: where do you get that stuff from?

Many thanks in advance!
Author:  efialtis [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Apparently it is a great glue but very expensive. Isinglass (4) is a clear fish glue made from the swim bladders of fish – the finest coming from
Russian sturgeon although the swim bladders of other fish species such as Cod or Hake or
freshwater fish like the Grayling were also used historically (see Comm. 1182 by Remy Gug).
Isinglass is supplied dried, in sheet or leaf form.
Isinglass is a pure form of gelatin but with a fibrous structure making it stronger and harder than
hide glue. It also has superior bonding properties that may be the reason for its preferred past use
in instrument repair.
Reference to other early technologies may provide more information about the properties of
isinglass glue.
The superior strength of isinglass glue is evident in its past use by the early Asian bow makers.
Their small but powerful reflex bows were of composite construction – layers of wood, horn and
sinew held together with glue. The bowyers, according to the climate in which a bow was to be
used, adjusted the proportions of glue and other materials of a bow. In cold damp environments,
bows were made with a greater proportion of horn, a moderate amount of sinew and glue, and a
small portion of wood. The anonymous author of a 16th C treatise on the Arab bow states that
“Others have recommended that in countries of excessive heat the sinew should be saturated with
glue made from the best parchment, which is characteristically moist and, therefore, suitable for
hot regions but not for those which are cold and humid”. This implies that isinglass was
preferred for bow making and could suggest that bow makers mixed the two types of glue in
order to optimize glue properties for a given environment.
Hungarian bowmaker Csaba Grozer, who makes replicas of early Asian bows, claims that
isinglass is the best glue in the world for making this type of bow as it is very strong, does not
become brittle with time and has an extended “open time” allowing the bowyer to saturate the
layers of sinew filament in good time before the glue sets.
Author:  Piiman [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Lee Valley has it
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Piiman wrote:
Lee Valley has it

I only found their bottled fish glue, I'm not sure if this is "the real stuff" Image
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Bruce buddy I keep my fish glue for one year in the fridge in a jar marked "NOT Peanut Butter..." :? and then I get a new batch each year. This is what David Collins does too and my glue comes from his annual glue order.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Markus Schmid wrote:
Piiman wrote:
Lee Valley has it

I only found their bottled fish glue, I'm not sure if this is "the real stuff" Image



The Lee Valley Fish Glue is Norland Fish Glue, re-packaged. It is 100% fish glue, but is not Isinglass, which is very expensive. While Isinglass might be great stuff, it is not needed. It's sort of like using 350 gram strength Hide Glue. Not necessary, and harder to use.
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Thanks Waddy. So my next Lee Valley order will contain that magic fish glue (I just received a nice parcel from Lee Valley some days ago, of course without fish glue [headinwall] - overseas shipping costs and customs paperwork flat rate urge me to order more just a bottle of glue)
Author:  dmills [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
I thought I had read somewhere that fish glue can stain spruce endgrain in rosette and binding channels if the channels are not first sealed with shellac or a similar sealer. Is this not true?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
My take on fish glue (as Mike knows and thanks again Mike for turning me on to fish glue) is that it is the near perfect glue. Most of the advantages of HHG with out the heat. nearly the same strength, great open time and easy clean up. The only draw back is its susceptibility to long term moisture exposure but that is over hyped and besides; how many of us our guitars as bath and shower toys.
Author:  SteveG [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Markus - I took a screenshot of well-known luthier José Romanillos talking about his favourite fish glue that came from Canada via Germany, in hopes of tracking down a source here. The only place that I could find it was :

http://www.pianoteile-baumgaertel.de/

Select english, then do a search for "fish glue".
It is available in 0.15 litre, 0.25 litre, or 1 litre containers.

The video where he talks (very favourably) about it is:

http://www.youtube.com/user/guitargourm ... oHrSXklhe8


cheers
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
I think the site is www.norlandproducts/fishglue.com
I have some that is 2 years old and still works perfect!
You can freeze it indefinately.

I'm glad MDP and everyone else who uses it is happy.
It just makes our instrument making easier.
Mc
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
I think the site is www.norlandproducts.com
I have some that is 2 years old and still works perfect!
You can freeze it indefinately.

I'm glad MDP and everyone else who uses it is happy.
It just makes our instrument making easier.
Mc
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
The Norland glue is also available at Lee Valley in smaller quantities than a gallon.
Author:  George L [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
Not sure if this is just repackaged or what, but here's another source I saw mentioned on another forum:

http://www.oldemill.com/store/index.php/cPath/36

I've read that fish glue can withstand high temps better than HHG. Anyone have any experience with this? I have a brand new bottle of LMI white, but I'm leaning very strongly toward switching to fish glue for my next guitar. This stuff just seems almost too good to be true. Is there a catch that I'm missing?
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish glue -again !
I always get mine from the supplier George mentioned, good service and not too expensive.
They work with the furniture restoring group but I find this glue to be great for most
everything we do.
Thanks Hesh for that info on shelf life, looks like it's time for me to re-order.
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