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Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
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Author:  Frei [ Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
Does anyone use a detailed build checklist, and does it pre-empt mistakes? Is it possible to cut back on a high number of mistakes using a checklist?
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
I do not use a detailed check list but I do like to keep a decent record in a log book during builds and then review these notes before beginning the next guitar.

I am sure that having a detailed check list as you describe can do nothing but help. I personally tend to get a bit bogged down if I try to think of everything at once so I would shoot for a "general checklist".

I am very curious as to what others do.
Author:  DannyV [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
After turning 50 this year I'm probably getting to the point where if I make the same mistake twice I'll have forgotten about it the first time and It will be like a whole new learning experience for me. [:Y:]

I think Stephen has the right idea to keep good notes. That and never work tired or try to get that "ONE LAST THING FINISHED TODAY". That rarely works out for me.

Cheers,
Danny
Author:  truckjohn [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
I think it depends on the mistake....

I don't think it would prevent mistakes of the "Did it wrong" variety -- like splitting a binding strip while planing it thinner, Dropping a chisel thru a soundboard, or finding out a bracewood billet was totally useless because it had a giant amount of runout...

I think it would prevent mistakes of the "Should have thought that thru more and errors in design" flavor... Like... Made 4 bridges... and the 1st 2 had the wrong string spacing... or Neck too wide or Bridge plate missed bridge, 25.5" scale fretboard was really a 25.34" scale fretboard.. or stuff like that..

And then, there's the ever present way to do yourself in.... The check list is either so detailed that you don't do it... or so vague that it is useless....

Thanks

John
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
I jot down a 'more or less' checklist for myself from time to time, but I'd be wary of pre-printing one unless I was making production models. I think rigid, protocol driven work is a valuable tool for quality control if you know the process inside and out, but you need to contiuously question *why* you do something in a specific order, and make sure you think things through fully. Mindlessly following rules can lead to different kinds of mistakes.

Same applies to my 'day job' (medicine), really.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
Well, you'll always find a new and exciting way to make mistakes. But having an 'order of operations' type of checklist can save a lot of time, so you don't have to figure out the process every time. And every time you have a time saving 'revelation moment' you can add it to the list, as well as 'achtung!' moments (like a reminder to check your body depth against the depth of your dovetail cut before you make the cut...)
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
I don't use a check list but I could see how it would be useful to almost anyone. Mistakes such as not putting the truss rod in the neck before gluing on the fretboard could be avoided with a checklist... :shock: :o or just do what I do and write on your fretboard "don't forget truss rod, stupid" and all will be well... :D

I am just now completing another nutter peanut butter dreadn*ught and at the final sanding stage.... Lucky me... :( I hate sanding.... [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] Anyway... like a lot of things everything that I do to build a guitar is in my head. On this one I only looked up two things and they include referencing deflection data while thicknessing the top and yesterday I used Stew-Mac's site to get the drill bit size for Grover Sta-tites.

But yeah a check list would be helpful I think although I personally would forget to use it. :) When I started out I was very much interested in what the Luthiers of days gone by did and how they developed a "feel" for their wood... :shock: :? They instinctively knew when to glue things and when not to glue things. This has always been the kind of Luthier that I wanted to be when I grew up. So in my case my goal is different and that is why I would not use a check list.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
I do use a "checklist" (more of a "step-by-step" procedure) that I began right at the start. It is a spreadsheet list of operations/steps, with associated "things to remember" (setup details/ bits to use/ etc) AND highlighted warnings (past errors/ potential errors/ "don't do this" comments/ etc.) It includes alternate methods (eg dovetail rather than bolt-on). It's updated during each build (better ways/ new errors/etc), then reprinted to follow for the next one. The old copy goes in the file for that guitar as kind of a journal of the build. Maybe a bit anal (it's very detailed and currently runs about 1200 lines) but it helps me a lot. You find you need to rely on it less & less the more guitars you build, but a quick read before doing a series of operations gets the mind in gear and often reminds me of potential trouble spots.
Author:  WudWerkr [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
I have a sign over my work bench in large letters that says " SLOW DOWN STUPID "

Makes me stop and think. More [:Y:] and less gaah and [headinwall]
Author:  Andy Birko [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
Once an instrument is under way, I'll sit down once or twice to write down sort of a punch list of things that need to be done and in what order. I make this list triple spaced as I usually forget things and they need to be added in an re-ordered. I also use this as an opportunity to re-think order of operation of stuff to make things easiest.
Author:  Corky Long [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
Novice here - 5 guitars completed to date.

I have no doubt that checklists are useful. When I have an "ah hah" on better approach, error I'm trying to avoid, etc. I note it in my notebook. I'm still adapting my build methods (I know that will never stop, but what I mean is I'm still making major changes to how I build, e.g. going to a bolt on m&T neck instead of a dovetail, etc.) so my checklist is in flux.

I live in fear of committing the same stupid error twice, so it's a necessity for me.

My own temparament makes detailed notes a chore - I'm still working on an approach that is methodical, but doesn't weigh me down with administrivia.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
I have been spending a lot of time thinking about the "operations" involved in building a guitar and I have been making check lists and trying to keep track of how much time each sub-task takes. The goal isn't to track how many hours it takes to build a guitar, but to try and find synergies where I can combine certain steps to help gain time efficiencies later.

There have been lots of AH-HA moments, and lots of new thoughts about tooling and fixtures.

I think it is a worth while excercise.
Author:  Chas Freeborn [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
What Brock sez.
It's always good to take a look at process to improve efficiency and more importantly precision.
-C
Author:  Parser [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
About 6 guitars ago I did a time study - everything I did I wrote down on a spreadsheet. I wanted to get a baseline to see where I could make the most improvement. I thought it was a great exercise and really helped steer my process improvements & new jig designs. It's about time that I redo this study...I'd like to see if much has changed since then (I think it has!).

I just recently made a Guitar Bill of Materials database (in Access 2007). This has been a nice tool for configuring new builds...I loaded it with part numbers for the LMI parts & such that I use on a regular basis (kerfing, finish, tuners, woods, etc..). I can now "design" a guitar and get the parts cost in a couple minutes. I've also added in a cost factor for each guitar to account for sandpaper, glue, and other consumables. Here's a screenshot:

Image

I used to do a lot of database design in Access as well as VB programming. I guess this is kind of a "digital jig"...?

Trev
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
Pretty cool Trev! [:Y:]
Author:  Blain [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
I don't have a checklist, but I do keep a log of notes for things that I don't want to have to figure out each time (or figure out wrong).

Things like what size drill bit to use for drilling out the bridge pin holes, Tuner holes for the type of tuner, basic notes for finishing, etc.

I find myself referring back to it for each build and I can honestly say that it helps at least speed up the process. I don't build frequently enough to remember from one to the next so after working months to finish a guitar it helps to refresh my memory.

I also jot down my mistakes so that I'm extra careful not to make them again. (make sure the bearing is secure on the bit before routing the binding channel, cut fingernails and wear gloves before doing a french polish, etc.)
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
I have a loose ring binder of "Procedures" with sequential steps. Topics include "making a bridge", "making a fingerboard", "making a neck", etc. I write in revisions. If you make batches of parts it's a long time before you do it again so I always review the steps before hand. I also write in mistakes in big letters It's saved my butt a few times.
Terry
Author:  Parser [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
Thanks Hesh - maybe I'll shoot you a copy once I get it cleaned up..!

Thanks,
Trev
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can a Build Checklist pre-empt mistakes?
Speaking of checklists & sequenses, I just ran across this.
http://www.newenglandluthiers.org/conte ... uence.html
seems pretty comprehensive...may help someone.
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