Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25510		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
Hi everyone!

I'm a newbie in the world of lutherie, and don't have yet my own pro shop. I have few questions about the job... It's more like a pool than defenitives questions.

1- When starting, if you don't have much orders, is it better to continue to build some guitars that are not sold right now, losing money, or to wait for orders?

2- Are you taking custom orders, or offering some precise models, whit some wood choice, etc...

3- Are all your guitars unique? By example: Do you have a single headstock, or bridge design that is the same on all your guitars, or do you make unique design to each one?
Author:  Tom West [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
Francis: If you are new to luthiery I think it's too early to start thinking about going pro.Keep building but do some repair work on the side to build your knowledge.Maybe think about one of the luthier schools.Good reputations are hard to build and also hard to keep,bad reputations are easy to acquire and extremely hard to shake.There is a basic axiom in the quality field.Give someone excellent service or product and on the average they tell 8 other folks.Mess it up and they tell everyone....!!! Also warranty work can play a toll if you do not have your chops to a high standard. I am not speaking as some one who has worked at luthiery as a job but as one who has been around for almost 70 years and has seen the ups and downs of a lot of things. Also am not trying to mess up your dream but rather would like to see you make a success of it. Think Frankie Ford may have had an excellent thread on this subject on the UMGF.I wish you the best in your adventure.
Tom
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
westca wrote:
Think Frankie Ford may have had an excellent thread on this subject on the UMGF.I wish you the best in your adventure.
Tom


Ah, Frankie Ford. What ever became of him after he sang "Sea Cruise?"
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
Ti-Roux wrote:
1- When starting, if you don't have much orders, is it better to continue to build some guitars that are not sold right now, losing money, or to wait for orders?
Build. For as long as you can pay for it. You will gain experience, which is priceless.

Ti-Roux wrote:
2- Are you taking custom orders, or offering some precise models, whit some wood choice, etc...
For myself, precise models but with a lot of possibilities to customize (wood choices, neck profil, box dept, possible inlays, etc.)

Ti-Roux wrote:
3- Are all your guitars unique? By example: Do you have a single headstock, or bridge design that is the same on all your guitars, or do you make unique design to each one?
Some part of the design are redundant (headstock, logo, rosette, body shape) but almost all my guitars turn out unique in the sens that any given customer never makes the exact same choices as another one already made. Although it did happen that some customers looked at one of my demos and said "I want one just like this".
Author:  woodsworth [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
I don't know about anyone else. I'm not pro and am at the very beginning of my luthier journey. I'm not choosing this because i want to be rich. I am choosing it because i want to build instruments, have all of my life, since being 13 actually. Something always got in the way. Mostly my sense of responsibility and inner need to prove myself. Three years ago i had a life changing experience, i met someone half way across the world and fell in love. I left a 100,000 job because i knew i needed to be with her. Now i'm very poor living in the poorest area of Wales struggling to make a living, but happy and feeling alive for the first time in my life.

I've been building up a woodworking business ever since being here and have suffered several break-ins that have made me rethink that what i am doing with my life. It became clear i was building a business in woodworking because i thought it the responsible and practical thing to do. But faced with buying the equipment for a third time i asked myself why i'm building a business building doors cupboards and windows when my heart is in building instruments.

I've taken courses in violin making read book after book on the subject my woodworking skills are impeccable but no matter what i do where i live i will always be poor. So I thought that if this was the case i'd rather be doing what i love then building a business that will eventually lead me to having the wealth and free time to do what i want.

If you want to make money serious money very few luthiers get there. If building instruments feels like it was your calling then do it. Don't let anything or anyone stop you. But be prepared to take on other work to do it. When i'm done the renovation i'm working on now, i'll probably take on a part time job of some sort doing some menial task for a pittance to pay the bills. The rest of the time, I will be doing exactly what i love doing and have always felt is my destiny.

bliss
Author:  Tom West [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
Howard: Indeed,should read Frank Ford. But then again maybe Frankie could not make it singing songs....??
Author:  Tom West [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
Filippo: I'm a straight man for Howard,pay is lousy though.
Author:  Parser [ Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
When you first start, you are not going to be making top shelf instruments. You'll probably make a few that don't pass muster functionally and I would never recommend selling something that is not playable or that has major defects. But, when you get to the point where you are making functional instruments, I say go ahead and sell them. Guitar building is too expensive to be able to build any real quantity unless you are also selling them (or have ample funds). The only way you'll get better is to keep building, and the only way you'll keep building is if you sell your work. You might just break even at first, but over time you'll get better and you'll be able to ask a few more bucks. I remember someone saying that you shouldn't expect to make a profit for 3 to 5 years and I think this is right on.

I hope this helps, this reflects my experience so far with this stuff. I'm about waist deep in jigs, equipment, and wood and will probably finally break even this year (after about 3.5 years).

Best,
Trev
Author:  Bailey [ Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
Build em as long as you can$$$.....Then read, learn and repair old or damaged guitars/instruments for the knowledge..
My true calling is woodcarving...but always searching the learning curve and Luthier is just another avenue to incorporate more wood skill and knowledge. Nothing wasted working on instruments of any kind...especially if you love to play like I do.
Kent bailey
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
westca wrote:
Francis: If you are new to luthiery I think it's too early to start thinking about going pro.Keep building but do some repair work on the side to build your knowledge.Maybe think about one of the luthier schools.Good reputations are hard to build and also hard to keep,bad reputations are easy to acquire and extremely hard to shake.There is a basic axiom in the quality field.Give someone excellent service or product and on the average they tell 8 other folks.Mess it up and they tell everyone....!!! Also warranty work can play a toll if you do not have your chops to a high standard. I am not speaking as some one who has worked at luthiery as a job but as one who has been around for almost 70 years and has seen the ups and downs of a lot of things. Also am not trying to mess up your dream but rather would like to see you make a success of it. Think Frankie Ford may have had an excellent thread on this subject on the UMGF.I wish you the best in your adventure.
Tom


I wasn't thinking about going pro now, it was just to start a discussion. And also, I'm already in a nice 3 years program of lutherie here in Montreal.


@ Alain Moisan: Merci, je pense que c'est une bonne approche!

@ Woodsworth: I know exactly i'm not in the right job to make big money. And it's not my goal... I'm only there to build guitar, final dot. I was just wondering about the best way to continue build guitars, and maybe survive.. :lol:

@ Filippo: You're probably right on this one, but like I said, i'm in a 3 years lutherie program. during these 3 years we build 1 uke, 2 classicals and 1 steel string. We also have a lot of theoric courses about many subjects and also courses about repair, finishing and all these stuff. So, I think after this program i'll be OK to start to build seriously (not pro, but seriously) as much as I do repairs.


And thanks to everyone for the replies!
Author:  woodsworth [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
The only luthiers i've known have struggled. I don't know any who have done well. But what i can say about the one's i've known is that they've diversified into other instruments, and the ones who can stand the public have opened store fronts selling anything they can sell music related. Offering classes, teaching music, fixing broken instruments of all kinds...

Survival is something different then what we want to do some times. I plan on a part time job as i don't like people as much as someone who can run a store front. I think there is a bit of luck involved in the outcome of any business. No one plans to fail, but most do, and while many will say you need a business plan, i don't think you can plan what people want. It evolves from listening very carefully when the doors of your business open. (proverbial doors)

I know many people doing what they love to do, but it has turned into something they loathe because they can't make a go of it. If you have passion, if you listen to what people want, do what you love, but also do something to cover your costs so you can do what you love, till you are known for what you love to do. like my signature says
Author:  mateo4x4 [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
An excellent topic, and reassuring to know that I am already doing what others think is a good start. I've sold a few, to close friends, at no more than break even just to make room for more, and pay for the next few chunks of wood. Everyone knows that what I make now is functionally great, but that the looks are a bit, er...rough? laughing6-hehe

My only goal at this point is to have the hobby/passion pay for itself so I can keep building as often as possible. Would I like to make serious money at it? Sure...but the pressure involved may just kill the joy, too. I guess the only upside to the budget cuts at work last month is that I have a lot more time in the shop, and still qualify for un-employment insurance too.
Author:  Hupaand [ Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
As a hobby, it's not as cheap as watercolor, or scrollsaw, but you can make guitars every day for less than playing golf, or skiing, or riding horses, or smoking good cigars, or running your speedboat every day.

Frankie Ford is still at it, got a pencil thin mustache, lots of hair, big rings, and plays the piano. Sort of a Little Richard, but still singing 'Sea Cruise.'
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
Ti-Roux wrote:
1- When starting, if you don't have much orders, is it better to continue to build some guitars that are not sold right now, losing money, or to wait for orders?

2- Are you taking custom orders, or offering some precise models, whit some wood choice, etc...

3- Are all your guitars unique? By example: Do you have a single headstock, or bridge design that is the same on all your guitars, or do you make unique design to each one?

1 - Building constantly is the only way to develop new skills, improve others, and perhaps more importantly not lose those already acquired. The only way to get better is to do it over, and over and over…
2 - Yes, yes and yes.
3 - Yes. Personally I tend to use the same bridge and peghead design, sometimes scaled down a bit for smaller guitars.

There are two often conflicting general philosophies within builders, those who jig up intensely, and those who prefer a more low tech approach with an emphasis on handwork. Most builders place themselves somewhere in the middle, at various degrees. Jigging up almost every step of the build severely limits the ability to change designs, as new jigs must be built to test new ideas. But it also guarantees consistency, and at an extreme can considerably speed up the process. At the other extreme, some builders don't even use moulds or bending forms and are free to change any aspect of the guitar on the spot, or create a new model in the time it takes to think of it. It's matter of philosophy. Personally I do not see much fulfillment in building the same instrument a million times.
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
Ti-Roux, how many guitars have you built so far ?.
I meen you say your a newbie ! and then asking about going pro ? are those guitars you´ve made so far comparable to other "pro" builders guitars ? if they are, then go for it. I have calculated a lot on a future as a luthier and like others have said this is nothing you do if you wanna make money ! To me, it has become a true passion and light in my life "finally found something I love to do !!! So, if these are also your feelijngs towards luthery, then again I´ll say go for it. Only you know your skills, Mozart was 4 y old and played better then people 30 years older with 1000 times more training. :D Now I will be bombarded with explanations against my reasoning :D
but, again -are those guitars you´ve made so far comparable to other "pro" builders guitars ? if they are, then go for it.

Lars
Author:  Haans [ Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lutherie, business, money, all that stuff...
The best advice I can give is don't quit your day job. Keep it as a hobby till you can't deal with doing both anymore. Once it stops being a hobby it can really really start being work.
As to your questions,
1.) yes
2.) yes
3.) no
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/