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| Two carbon fiber questions http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25486 |
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| Author: | lactose [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Two carbon fiber questions |
Hi. I have noticed some luthiers putting carbon fiber rods along side the truss rod. I have used the CF rods by themselves with great success but it seems to me the CF rods would fight the truss rod if you ever started adjusting the truss rod. Can anyone verify that the truss rod still works with the CF rods right beside it ? Also, I am thinking about using carbon fiber frets. I would route or saw little .10" wide fretboard slots and glue in some CF rod. The only problem I can think of at the moment (besides breathing the dust) is that the fret slots, under less than normal compression, might allow the neck to bend a little in a concave manner. Any thoughts ? Thanks. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
The carbon fiber rods parallel to the truss rod will mean there will be a bit more tension on the rod but they will flex as the rod is engaged. They flex length wise without issue but if placed in well fitting channels they greatly resist twist in the neck. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
lactose wrote: Also, I am thinking about using carbon fiber frets. I would route or saw little .10" wide fretboard slots and glue in some CF rod. The only problem I can think of at the moment (besides breathing the dust) is that the fret slots, under less than normal compression, might allow the neck to bend a little in a concave manner. Any thoughts ? Thanks. If the fret board is seeing no added compression caused by the fret tang forcing the slot open. Why would it concave on you?? I am not sure I am following your logic here. Why would you want to use a material that’s highly subject to abrasion wear as fret material? As the string continuously engage the fret (carbon fiber) they will be wearing the stands leading to a fuzz affect rather soon I would expect. I see no advantage that carbon fiber frets would bring to the table. |
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| Author: | efialtis [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
MP wrote "Why would you want to use a baterial thats is highly subject to abrasion wear as fret material. As the string continiously engauge the the fret (carbon fiber) they will be wearing the stands leading to a fuzz affect rather soon I would expect. I see no advantage that carbon fiber frets would bring to the table." Having worked with unidirectional carbon fiber as well as having researched its wear properties,I think this would be a worthwhile experiment, and not something that should be dismissed out of hand.Carbon fiber is now routinely used in break-pads. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
efialtis wrote: MP wrote "Why would you want to use a baterial thats is highly subject to abrasion wear as fret material. As the string continiously engauge the the fret (carbon fiber) they will be wearing the stands leading to a fuzz affect rather soon I would expect. I see no advantage that carbon fiber frets would bring to the table." Having worked with unidirectional carbon fiber as well as having researched its wear properties,I think this would be a worthwhile experiment, and not something that should be dismissed out of hand.Carbon fiber is now routinely used in break-pads. Yes it is but it is intended to wear away in that application. The advantage it brings to that application is light weight and fairly quick heat dispersal. I did not say that the experiment was not worth while but rather I could not see the expected advantage. My skepticism is not critically motivated but rather logically inquisitive. |
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| Author: | lactose [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
Thanks for the input. I was reading another thread about Delrin frets, and found some info on the net suggesting they were a successful fret material. I am thinking CF is tougher than Delrin. So that was my my thinking. I like trying new things, I just like to make sure on not wasting time on something totally non-workable. I install the CF spars in a neck slot so that with the fretboard facing up, looking lengthwise up the neck, the X axis is thin, and the Y axis is thick. I find the idea that the CF spars will bend in this position counter-intuitive. And I would think any torsional strength would be somewhat less than the Y axis strength. But you are probably correct since people smarter than me are combining the spars and the truss rods. The typical fret slot has some outward force against the slot walls due to pressing the fret in. Laying a rod in a routed slot would have less force, and perhaps let the neck arc a little more. I am just speculating here but I do see this issue discussed here in other contexts. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
As soon as the carbon fiber frets get a little wear, they will fuzz up with sharp fibers that would literally shred your fingertips. Really, really bad idea. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
Isn't Derlin a solid polymer? CF rod is carbon fibers laminated in a resin |
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| Author: | efialtis [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
MP wrote "Yes it is but it is intended to wear away in that application. The advantage it brings to that application is light weight and fairly quick heat dispersal. I did not say that the experiment was not worth while but rather I could not see the expected advantage. My skepticism is not critically motivated but rather logically inquisitive." Carbon fiber has excellent wear properties. When used with the proper binding agent, I can very easily see it being used for frets.The advantage, from my perspective, would be the use of highly accurate milled and polished molds for forming the profile of the frets on the fingerboard itself. This method would also ensure very accurate fret placement,as well as potentially eliminating the fret dressing step. |
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| Author: | efialtis [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
BD wrote "As soon as the carbon fiber frets get a little wear, they will fuzz up with sharp fibers that would literally shred your fingertips. Really, really bad idea." Having used unidirectional carbon fiber in an epoxy matrix, I seriously doubt that will happen, but who knows until they try it. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
What about tone,after all that is what the guitars are intended to produce. Use stainless if you are cocerned about wear.Two lengthwise rods go a long way to prevent twist. |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
Barry Daniels wrote: As soon as the carbon fiber frets get a little wear, they will fuzz up with sharp fibers that would literally shred your fingertips. Really, really bad idea. I couldn't agree more! It'll also shred your strings. |
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| Author: | jlneng [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Two carbon fiber questions |
We use alot of Delrin at my day job. It machines well but I think it is way too soft for frets, and can be brittle when machined down to a small cross-section. |
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