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| First go at plastic bining - any advice http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25437 |
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| Author: | JimH [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Hello all, I've built 3 instruments prior to this - all with wood binding. Now I find myself with no extra pairs of hands available - which I found important for wood binding. so I'm planning on plastic binding and purfling. It's only a tenor uke, so I reckon should be easy enough. Here's my plan: Bend the plastic on the iron - is this ok? tape it up with inch intervals. glue it (with CA) move tape glue the gaps hopefully the ends will melt into one another to make it perfect. ....Any advice on getting the end joint perfect? - is it worth packing in shavings of plastic as they'll melt into it? (on the top it doesn't matter as will become invisible.) ... do I need to shellac the end grain? - I'm concerned about this stage as the glue may not take. ...I'm using one piece top and back so it won't be joining at the tail, the way it does on a guitar - only at the neck. All advice appreciated. Thanks. |
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| Author: | Robbie_McD [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
There is a pretty good video on how Taylor installs their plastic binding. (The side bending video is pretty cool too...) It can be seen here: http://www.taylorguitars.com/see-hear/Default.aspx?id=1004 |
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| Author: | Haans [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
I do a lot of ivoroid binding and don't prebend it except for mandolins. I use Weldon 16 for glue, but Duco works too. I wouldn't use C/A unless you have an exhaust fan. It'll kill ya. I use strips of duct tape to hold it together and after 24 hours, remove the tape. Wait 2 days and then you can sand. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
I am with Haans, I use weldon or duco. Personally, I find plastic to be a much bigger PITA than wood. Chasing out the sanding scratches is no fun at all. Scraping works best IMO. |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Most plastic or celluloid bindings are 1/16" thick so no need to pre-bend. On a tight cutaway a couple of seconds with a heat gun will soften the plastic enough to be bent at any angle. Another glue technique with celluloid is to wipe with acetone and use Titebond 1. |
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| Author: | Dave Stewart [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
As has been said, watch the Taylor video & use weldon16 (although I use CA on the neck). Depending on thickness, I also prebend using a gun (NOT an iron) for the waist & cutaways. For miters, you can either dab with acetone & pinch 'till it grabs or dab on premixed "soup" (shavings in acetone) & pinch. |
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| Author: | JimH [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Thanks guys - in answer to the first post, yes it's my first CA binding - in fact first plastic. The other three have been wood and titebond. Also Duco and weldon16 aren't the easiest things to get hold of in the UK apparently. I read an article recommending plastic and CA as the easiest method. As I've stated, this being mky first solo attempt it seemed a good idea - you guys are making me tihnk again. Thanks for the advice, keep ity coming if there is more. Thank you. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
CA is fine for this job and should not affect you unless you are really sensitive. To make the joints disappear, dissolve some binding in acetone to a thick goo consistency. Apply this to one end of the binding and shove it into place. If you need to prebend the binding to get around a cutaway or sharp waist, use a heat gun and carefully heat a small area until it just gets flexible, then quickly set it into the binding ledge and let it cool. Heating the binding on an iron would be a big mistake. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Quote: I find myself with no extra pairs of hands available - which I found important for wood binding. so I'm planning on plastic binding and purfling Check out Robbie O'Brians youtube video on binding, I don't quite do it his way, but similar and 2 hands are plenty if the binding is bent to shape. Also there is one available for CA gluing of binding, I can't remember if it was Tod or Chris that did it but also good technique. I just finished binding on number 7 build and actually am starting to like doing it, binding used to be my most feared and hated operation in a build. I have only used curley maple and ebony and love the look of natural wood binding. Fred |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
After using CA glue since the mid 70's for Model Airplane building and repair and now Guitar building the last 4 years I have started to develop a reaction, if I use it in large quantities, such as gluing a rosette or what I will do tomorrow a pearl purfling I have to be very careful to get the fumes away from me or I get a tightness in the chest and an elevated heart rate. It goes away quickly but has made me very careful lately, I am trying to find alternate methods of doing some of the tasks I did with CA, but it is so handy and fast that it is hard to replace. Fred |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Todd Stock wrote: however, for most folks, the fumes are no more than a minor irritant. Good point. Years ago in chem lab I learned that it was some of the inoffensive-smelling stuff that could do you real harm, and that some of the powerful-smelling compounds weren't that harmful. Some brands of CA seem to be much more 'penetrating-smelling' than others, though I don't care much for any of them. It's tough for me to do careful work when the tears are pouring from my eyes, blinking, etc! You do need to provide good air circulation - fan and fresh air supply. For CA work like flooding a rosette or crack repair, I arrange to leave the room for a bit once the CA is applied. Cheers John |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
I much prefer wood bindings, but for some styles of guitar the 'traditional look' is plastic binding, so I probably can't avoid the stuff forever. Fred Tellier wrote: Check out Robbie O'Brians youtube video on binding, Thanks for the tip, Fred. The link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6haG-aDM-eg&feature=channel That's the way I've done bindings, but I still find it stressful at times. Getting the binding channel done right, and bending the binding properly help a lot. Having all those strips of tape hanging off the bench edge is a must! One advantage of using fish glue (as in the video), which I've just started using recently, is that you can slow things down or reverse your steps with a little warm water. I always found this trickier to do with Titebond-type glue. Fish glue does make your fingers sticky, so you want to have warm water and a rag/towel handy. CA staining into the top wood is a concern, so I definitely apply a shellac wash coat before CA rosette work. Cheers John |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Organic vapor masks are quite effective against CA. I try always to use one. Doesn't protect the eyes, though, which are also sensitive to the vapors. Celluloid is relatively easy to glue. Vinyl (Boltaron) is not. CA is the only thing I trust with vinyl. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
The important part is to ventilate the area if you are going to use C/A or at the least wear a mask. Chemical sensitivity is an accumulating illness just like smoking. One cigarette won't kill you but many will... It's surprising how many of us when young thought we were invincible, only to realize with age we are not. |
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| Author: | StevenWheeler [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
I can't help with the plastic binding. As far as the CA adhesive, use a downdraft sanding table. I pore filled a Red Oak guitar with CA (now that's a lot of CA!) and didn't shed a tear. Steve |
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| Author: | JimH [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Thanks guys - that's a lot to digest and I shall get to the videos as soon as I can- obviosuly heating the binding with a gun seems the most popular choice. I figured an iron would melt it. How strong a gun? wall-paper stripping type or model making? thanks for the acetone tips. I'm a little concerned about the relative merits of plasic being a pain to get right sanding-wise. Wood binding was obviosuly very easy. Perhaps I'm making one job easier to make another harder? Thanks |
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| Author: | HippetyHop [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
If any spruce or cedar is involved, better seal with shellac especially after routing channels, or you may get staining from the CA (in the end-grain areas) that won't sand out, and even CA pore-filling won't hide it. You can "weld" pieces of plastic binding together with acetone to make a matching heel cap. Takes 2 or 3 days for the plastic to get back to it's normal hardness. Hip. |
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| Author: | JimH [ Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Is this a stupid idea: ...thinned titebond to seal the end grain of the spruce on the top. ie using it instead of shellac. The CA should bond with it right? |
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| Author: | JimH [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Thanks todd |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
Haans wrote: I do a lot of ivoroid binding and don't prebend it except for mandolins. I use Weldon 16 for glue, but Duco works too. I wouldn't use C/A unless you have an exhaust fan. It'll kill ya. I use strips of duct tape to hold it together and after 24 hours, remove the tape. Wait 2 days and then you can sand. I agree that CA is not probably the best choice for plastic bindings (ABS or celluloid ) However, to avoid starting any incorrect rumors here; I must say Cyanoacrylate (CA, superglue) will not kill you. It can be a repertory irritant but neither the compound nor the fumes are toxic. One can develop a hypersensitivity to it but this is true of anything. Always use proper PPE when working with it but it is neither poisonous nor carcinogenic if you have any doubt it down load the MSDS. Cyanoacrylates’ first use was for battle field wound closure. Later used for surgical incision closure and is still used in many dental procedures. |
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| Author: | Mark Maquillan [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
You should take a look at a product called ROO glue. Made for plastic to wood applications. http://www.rooglue.com/index.html |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
I find that sanding plastic binding to a minimum of 320 grit will remove the scratches. Anything smaller than that gets filled in by the lacquer and dissappears. |
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| Author: | sanaka [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
In the Taylor video they refer to "3M plastic adhesive". So presuamably a 3M product. Anyone know which one? Peace, Sanaka |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
sanaka wrote: In the Taylor video they refer to "3M plastic adhesive". So presuamably a 3M product. Anyone know which one? Peace, Sanaka Because they likely want a fast cure time for production run ability I bet it is EZ250015 polyurathane reative adhesive. |
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| Author: | sanaka [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: First go at plastic bining - any advice |
That PUR stuff is an interesting product, but doesn't seem like what Taylor was using. Some info on the EZ250015: Quote: 3M Scotch-Weld Polyurthane Reactive (PUR) Easy 250 Adhesive. One-component, 100% Solids, Polyurethane Reactive Adhesive. Fast set time, excellent for wood bonding and other materials. 15 second set time, 1 1/2 minute open time. Also this stuff comes in a caulk tube, and my understanding is that its consistency is also more caulk-like. In the Taylor video it is an amber colored liquid in a regular squeeze bottle. The open and set times were definitely longer than 15/90 seconds! It was a pretty unhurried, hand tape-on binding process they showed (Factory Fridays, binding part 2). Peace, Sanaka |
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