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| Stone work and lutherie http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25390 |
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| Author: | Chris aka Sniggly [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Stone work and lutherie |
Yeah I know...it's been done. My idea is that I want to use some of my wife's decorative stone beads in a rosette. I think I can mill this stuff and polish it all out once I have it shaped to what I want. Any suggestions on gluing? Is this not a good idea for some other reason I don't yet know? Stone vs wood kinda stuff? This photo would be a close representation of some of the beads. Chris |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
What about weight...? |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
westca wrote: What about weight...? My thoughts too - you could pot it in epoxy but you will be adding mass to the top. |
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| Author: | Chris aka Sniggly [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
Well...I haven't done the necessary weight testing just yet....but....if you were to compare the weight of some of these agates and such my wife has....to a comparable amount of say....African Blackwood or some other heavy wood....I don't think it's that much heavier. Bear in mind I have all this here in the house. The one thing that I want to do is mill out a rosette in stone and another with a wood I would use for rosettes and weigh them. Time is my enemy right now though. Again...this is just rosette stuff here.....not a center strip running down the middle. |
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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
The one downside I can think of is that it'll be very difficult to level down to the wood. When you sand a hard inlay, the wood around it sands away & the inlay stands proud. It sure would look cool if you can pull it off... Maybe inlay the stone a little below the wood surface & fill with clear finish. (epoxy or CA would work) Also, some stone gets dull when shaved thin. You might have to inlay it with a reflective backing. (aluminum foil???) Good luck eh! Sounds like fun. P.S. Since you will have to shave the stone down to .050" or so, I don't think weight will be THAT much of a factor. Can't be a lot heavier than shell... |
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| Author: | Chris aka Sniggly [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
Recon stone?..... Daniel, the one thing I thought would be cool is if the stone was NOT flat and coplanar with the rest of the soundboard. Obviously not protrusive but not flat either. I'm gonna play with this when time allows. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
Stone seems like a cool idea, but always comes out looking like someone made it at summer camp. |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
I think if shell and pearl and bone and copper and other metals work fine in a rosette... stone can as well... Weight shouldn't be a problem at the thicknesses we are talking about -- 0.060"... Just make sure you pick something you can work and polish... or that you can get in sufficiently thin pieces pre-polished. I say give it a go. Thanks John |
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| Author: | WilliamS [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
A few things: -For adhesive epoxy would be the way to go. -I'm assuming you know this, but just to be sure, you will definitely need lapidary equipment to work with agate-woodworking stuff won't cut it. -The mass of your rosette will be more than twice as much as a comparable wood rosette. Specific gravity for agate is about 2.6 compared to 1.2 for african blackwood. If you make it thin and have it more or less flush with the top weight might not be much of an issue but leveling would be-keep in mind that the agate your talking about is a form of quartz, MUCH harder than bone or pearl or copper or steel for that matter. If you're leaving it proud of the top and/or make a sort of doughnut-shaped cabochon, then weight might be an issue. -Stone is much more rigid than wood-very little flex and it will not move with changes in humidity (it will expand/contract with changes in temperature though nothing noticeable in the temp ranges a guitar will live in). So, if you're making the rosette out of one piece of stone it could conceivably cause some problems down the road when the wood around it moves slightly with changes due to humidity, etc. as well as the natural minor distortions that occur in the top over time due to string pull, etc. (possible cracks in the wood surrounding the stone or cracks in he stone itself). Might also cause some problems if you use domed tops as most do. If the rosette will be made of multiple pieces this probably won't be much of an issue. -If you're leaving the stone proud of the top be sure you do a good job polishing it and inlay it very carefully because you're not going to want to put finish on the stone. If you do put finish on the stone it will look very amateurish. If you want it to be flush, the idea mentioned by Daniel of inlaying slightly below the surface then flooding with epoxy, etc. might work. Again, though, you'll have to be very careful-if it is much below the surface and the layer of epoxy or whatever is very thick it will look very plasticy and you'll probably be able to tell that it's below the surface. |
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| Author: | Jamie_M [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
Inlaying stone and other non-conventional items can be done with great success. I good friend of mine made a guitar with various items that turned out beautifully. Check out the link to the guitar: www.sixstringnation.com Click on the "About the Guitar" tab and see what he did. |
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| Author: | Chris aka Sniggly [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
Jamie that was some very good information and it confirms some of my thoughts. A segmented rosette would certainly work better, something in the spirit of Somogyi's segmented rosette but with solid stone pieces just to make it easier on me. Thanks to all for the information. Once I get this into a test top I'll get some pics up. It'll be a while though... Chris |
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| Author: | Bailey [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stone work and lutherie |
It looks like the stones are of the Jadeite family....which means the stones are reasonably soft and can be actually flattened and polished fairly easy with emery type abrasives....being careful not to get the stone too hot. You may need to use a dop stick to hold the stone (Google lapidary supplies to see Dop Stick) Get them as thin (weight reduction) as possible before inlaying. You really won't be able to reduce the thickness successfully after they are inlaid. If the surface of these stones are sufficiently domed and polished, as is, you can remove the thickness just enough on the backside to set into a shallow cavity....you can leave a shallow domed top just above the surface. It looks like it actually may be possible to slice these stones in half with a diamond slice blade for your rotary tool.....dripping water to keep it cool or cut in a shallow pan of water. That could get the stones thin and get 2 at a time. I've done a lot of lapidary work over the past 40 years and it's not hard...you just need the right diamond tools to cut it. A 1"dia. 1/8in. shank cut off disc for a rotary tool should do the trick. If by chance these stones are of a 7 hardness near agate (doesn't look like it)...you'll definitely need diamond tools discs and grinder wheels to thin the stones. Check out the Lapidary Journal or search lapidary supplies for these items. If you make a pattern that uses mostly wood and then accent with spaced stones, you can lessen the weight and have a pleasing appearance too. Have fun with this....but if time is an issue....I'd wait and save some time to experiment before doing this. Kent |
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