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aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
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Author:  mnemotorsports [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
I will be placing my order for everything to build my first guitar on Monday :D from some of our sponsors. I have read several times people comments about aging their wood (hahaha sorry I’m immature). So with that in mind can I start building right away when I get the wood or do I have to age it/how long.

I was also planning on buying a set of maple back/sides from CVT and again wondering how long I am supposed to age the wood before I start using.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks as always
matt
Author:  DannyV [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
I'm pretty sure wood will age just fine in the shape of a musical instrument. The main points before building with it is to be sure it is at a suitable moisture content. 6 - 8 % I'd say. It should be acclimatized to your shop so if possible a couple of weeks in your humidity controlled environment. Other than that, go at 'er and have fun with it.

Good Luck,
Danny
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
I was storing a bunch of wood in my house that was otherwise well seasoned and stable, a few weeks ago I took it out to my shop and a lot of it warped and buckled almost immediately. You will probably want to sticker it for at least a couple weeks in your shop just to be on the safe side.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
That 6-8% moisture content number is a nice one to throw around, but it doesn't really mean much in this context. However dry or wet the wood is when it is shipped, or when you get it, the fact is that it _will_ reach some equilibrium moisture content very soon after you take it to your shop. What that M.C. is will depend, primarily, on the relative humidity in your shop. You might (and probably will) end up in the 6-8% range for M.C., if your shops conditions are reasonably comfortable for you, but if it's 5% or 9%, that's what you've got.

The point is that you have to work with your shop's conditions, and the M.C. of the wood will follow that. The best R.H. for a shop is probably a bit lower than the average that the instrument will see in it's lifetime. Keeping the shop a bit on the dry side insures against cracking (as much as you can, anyway). R.H. matters much more than temperature, so long as we're staying within 'comfortable' limits (say, those in which you can use glue).

Older wood does tend to be more stable, due, in part, to degradation of the hemicellulose, which is the part that seems to absorb the most moisture. But any wood should be acclimated to your shop conditions, and as stable as it's going to be, within a couple of weeks of being brought in, if it is stored properly. It might well cup or twist as it gains or loses the moisture it needs to, but that should be a transient condition if it doesn't have a lot of built-in stress, which is a whole 'nother thing.
Author:  truckjohn [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
Here's the deal... No matter how old or young it is... It is still wood... It communicates with the local Atmosphere... Take a 5,000 year old Jointed Top out of the Pharoh's tomb in Egypt and un-box it in South Florida in the Summer... and it will move.

If you are buying from a reputable supplier... It should already be fairly well seasoned and theoretically ready to use before you get it... You shouldn't have to worry about "Green" problems -- shrinking funny, splitting, etc.....

The part that will throw a wrench into the works is:
The difference between Their business and Your shop and where you store it...
And...
How well you control the humidity in your shop and storage location...

This will make the wood move and cup temporarily... How fast it settles down depends on the wood... but it shouldn't take more than 2-3 weeks.

If you can store and build in a humidity controlled place.. Stick it up neatly in your work area and Give it 2-weeks before you start bracing stuff up. It is even better if you can hide it away in hour house and also build the box in your house in a climate controlled place somewhere....

Tell us how it goes

John
Author:  mnemotorsports [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
Thanks guys,

Is there a way (I'm sure the answer is yes) of testing the moisture content of the wood. Do you guys own moisture meters?

Just to confirm stickering wood is when you stack the wood using 1x1 pieces of wood with a weight on top.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
mnemotorsports wrote:
Is there a way (I'm sure the answer is yes) of testing the moisture content of the wood. Do you guys own moisture meters?

Weight!
Weigh it to the nearest gram when you get it & keep weighing 'till it stabilizes.
Author:  mnemotorsports [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
does anyone have a scale of choice?
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
....want me to smoke it for you too?? laughing6-hehe
Seriously, lots of decent digital gram scales out there... try Radio Shack etc.
Author:  mnemotorsports [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
I didnt know you offered that service? laughing6-hehe

I dont mean to be a pest with all the questions. I have read traditons and technology and watched alot of videos on youtube but you were the first person, I have heard, say use a scale to check the moisture content. So before I spend my money in the wrong place I would rather ask a stupid question.
Thanks for the answer.

matt
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
No problem Matt....just zingin' ya!
Actually, I think every luthier should have gram scale to keep track of things... densities, individual component weights, final subassembly weights whatever.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
If you are buying sets from tonewood dealers the odds are it will be somewhere between 6-11% moisture content when it is shipped to you. in my opinion you would be best off stickering newly received sets for 30 day minimum in your shops environment to allow the wood to acclimate to your working conditions. If wetter than 11% sticker until it is at or below 11% max. 6-8% is better.
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
mnemotorsports wrote:
[...]
I have read [...] and watched alot of [...] but you were the first person, I have heard, say use a scale to check the moisture content. [...]
You missed to read Understanding Wood by Bruce Hoadley (Taunton Press)

I also weigh my wood, basically neck blanks because they are thicker and will take more time to dry. My Honduras Cedar necks, at an average RH of 50% take about 12 to 15 months to stabilize "within 5 grams". I have no idea about their moisture contents when they arrived or what it is now. But after 2 years "staying at home" they will be reasonably stable.

This might serve to give you an idea. It's a table of the drying history of a small cherry board, just to show how fast or slow wood does dry. Weight in grams, temperature in °C (not °F), dimensions in millimeters:
Attachment:
Cherry_drying-logsheet_2009-10.jpg


mnemotorsports wrote:
[...] So before I spend my money in the wrong place [...]
Wrong! Your time is much more worth than money, don't waste it on building guitars with wet wood! :mrgreen:

mnemotorsports wrote:
[...] I would rather ask a stupid question. [...]
An old saying: it's better to appear to be a a fool for two minutes for asking something rather than to be a fool for lifetime for not asking. ;)
Or: If you're not afraid of the answer: ask!
Author:  John A [ Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
truckjohn wrote:
If you are buying from a reputable supplier... It should already be fairly well seasoned and theoretically ready to use before you get it... You shouldn't have to worry about "Green" problems -- shrinking funny, splitting, etc.....

The part that will throw a wrench into the works is:
The difference between Their business and Your shop and where you store it...
And...
How well you control the humidity in your shop and storage location...

This will make the wood move and cup temporarily... How fast it settles down depends on the wood... but it shouldn't take more than 2-3 weeks.
John


I just got some wood to replace some back pieces I screwed up, from a cabinet shop - 8% RH on the wood. I got the wood planed down by them to .34-.37" - so it is pretty thick. I wanted to use the Safe-t-planer on it in a few days to get it down to .14 or .125" thickness and then sticker it.
Should I still wait the couple of weeks before I plane it down to .125" ? I hope my question is clear.
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
John A wrote:
[...] 8% RH on the wood. [...]

I guess you mean moisture contents (humidity of the wood).
If so, go ahead.

P.S. As far as I know (my mother language is not English), RH (Relative Humidity) refers to the humidity of the air.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
Markus Schmid wrote:
John A wrote:
[...] 8% RH on the wood. [...]

I guess you mean moisture contents (humidity of the wood).
If so, go ahead.

P.S. As far as I know (my mother language is not English), RH (Relative Humidity) refers to the humidity of the air.



i sure he ment 8% MC (moisture content) not relitive humidity ;)
Author:  John A [ Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
Correct MC - so I can continue to thin it ? - I don't mind waiting a couple of weeks to join and do the final thicknessing, but I wanted to get the initial thicknessing out of the way.
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
Michael Dale Payne wrote:
Markus Schmid wrote:
John A wrote:
[...] 8% RH on the wood. [...]
I guess you mean moisture contents (humidity of the wood). [...]
i sure he ment 8% MC (moisture content) not relitive humidity ;)

Here in the Swiss Alps, in wintertime, heating nicely, we reach down to 6% RH ;)
Off topic: that said, guitars built (just for example) in Barcelona are not exactly highly welcome in the Swiss Alps - too much prone ( = condemned) to crack... :shock:
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: aging tops backs/sides. Some basics
If you buy your top material from a "producer" (who harvests & resaws the wood) it is likely you will get material that has been cut relatively recently. Most producers don't dry their wood much below 10%. Nor do they have the luxury to let it take up space for months or years while it "seasons".
Most producers air dry their wood & (in most environments where softwoods grow) the relative humidity is not low enough to get the MC any lower.
This is one of the reasons some factories & individual builders "bake" their top wood.
There are many articles & discussions on this topic. You should be able to find some information in the forum archives.
I have baked some of the tops I've used & found it a useful practise. If you decide to go this route, it is important to let the wood acclimatize for a few weeks after baking.
Much of the hardwood we buy has, at some point in it's production, been kiln dried & need only be stored for a few weeks before it is ready to use. Your supplier should be able to give you some idea of the wood's history.
A couple of years ago, I bought a cocobolo set that was so wet, it took many weeks before I felt it was dry enough to use. In fact, that set is still stickered on my storage shelves.
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