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When do you scrap it and move on?
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Author:  letseatpaste [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  When do you scrap it and move on?
In light of all the recent humility and self-deprecation in the "Dumbest Building Mistake" thread... Here's a question that's mainly for amateurs and veteran-amateurs like myself.

At what point (if ever) do you just scrap or set aside a guitar and move onto the next one? How many things have to go wrong with it, or how many fixes and re-fixes make you reach a point where you just set it aside (or burn it) and start over? Do you ever get to the point where you'd rather be putting your time and energy into starting a new one that surely won't have as many cringe-worthy mistakes?

I've been at guitar building on-and-off since late 2003, and so far all I have to show for it are three closed up and bound boxes and a near-complete neck with a crooked headstock (and a few years of blogging all about those @ http://guitarmaking.blogspot.com ). I've set them aside and started a new one from scratch, and resurrected another one that I had barely started on a couple years ago. I've learned a ton working on the ones I've set aside, and there are some aspects of them that I am very proud of and happy with. And there are some aspects for which I know I'll always be apologizing, that's just my nature.

I have a feeling my threshold is pretty low, but I'm curious to hear other thoughts about it. I'm sure it happens fairly often but it's not exactly the sort of situation where you want to run and tell everyone on the internet about it. I'm not discouraged or asking for advice necessarily, just interested to hear your thoughts and experiences.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
As long as it can be fixed I will fix it, hopefully learning a few things in the process. It also depends on how much in materials and time you have tied in the project. If the fix takes more time, energy and/or materials than starting from scratch I will shamelessly scrap the thing. There's no point in spending a lifetime building the same guitar. Seasoned tonewoods make excellent kindling.
Don't feel bad, I know nobody who didn't make terrible, stupid mistakes.
Author:  Mark Groza [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
I have yet to have to scrap one, but have had things happen that were very fixable.It seems that when something goes wrong that if i think about it , there always seems to be a good fix.That is the beauty of working with wood sometimes.I'm not saying that all mistakes are fixable as i'm sure there are some that just aren't fixable.I just haven't encountered that yet.But if and when it does happen, i'm sure i can salvage something off it to use on another build.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
What Laurent said about if it can be fixed.

I'll add though that not being able to fix it now if your skill set is not there, yet, does not mean scrap it. There are a number of things that I could not understand well enough to get it the way that I wanted. So I decided to do no harm and make no attempt at a hack fix instead favoring to put it away until such time as I understood more about what should be done. This worked very well for me because I am forever learning including doing the things that help me learn like taking a class with Robbie, apprenticing with David Collins, reading Ervin's books.

So my point is that perhaps the decision to fix or scrap is self limiting when instead if you added one more possibility - waiting until you know more and evaluate then it may be the answer that in time gets your box finished and lets the very good work that you have done to date pay off. This is what shelves are for..... ;)
Author:  Hupaand [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
I've made a dozen and was about to ask that same question. I've gotten better and redone this or that on an earlier one, but I think that real 'buzz' from making guitars comes from making guitars, not fixing them. Being a complete hobbyist, I do get to choose.
Hugh
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
Let's see! On my second, I trashed 2 V-Joint necks that I had made, ripped out two rosettes, remade them and re-set them, ripped the back off and replaced all the back braces, did a complete refinish (French polish), because the pore filling was awful, broke 4 pieces of binding while bending, removed the side purfs, and re-made and re-installed them. It came out just fine. There were other things on that guitar too, I just can't remember everything.
Author:  stan thomison [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
I have had my share of "Murphy Law" guitars and at one point in time just tossed it. Went to work at shops and if it could be fixed it was and is fixed. I agree with Laurent, Hesh and others in that respect. One thing found at Bill's shop, there isn't much that can't be fixed and to a point unless one knows where to look can't find it. It does help the repair aspect of things. I have had to toss a top recently, but it is in the stack and will make the fixes needed later and on a smaller body guitar. One thing boss told me is if get frustrated and it effects work, take a break, even if from that guitar and move to another one. Think about the problem, and then think of the options in fixes, make a plan with what come up with it and make it work. One will learn a lot of tricks in doing this. Call it a growing process in building. Call it a new design or whatever. He is big and anal about seeing a problem, thinking how to fix it and then as the Cable Guy says "Get er done"

I just did a neck and some way my clamp came loose and the neck moved in the jig and everything went wacky with the tennon. It is now a smaller scale neck and will be a butt join. Design change
Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
I have not totally scrapped a guitar... Yet...

But.. I have scrapped lots and lots of parts.... I broke about 10 binding strips trying to get them hand-planed down to thickness. This last build had 4 bridges and 2 nuts... etc.

I believe that many folks need to take a very good piece of advice out of Cumpiano's book... "Perfect is the Enemy of Done!"

There are many mistakes in my 3 builds so far... Some fixed, many not...

For me, it was better to just keep moving along than to allow myself to get Mired down in the pit of "Not perfect..." and loose that "Forward progress." I find I get better at making them pretty each time.. I make less mistakes, and also work faster every time I do it.

But... For me it's a hobby.. so I only have to please Me!

I prioritize things on the following:
1. Effect on Playability and ability to Play In Tune...
This means...
Nut, Saddle, Bridge, Fretboard, Fretwork, Neck set and Action need to be as "Perfect" as I can get them. I also try to get the Neck straight and free of lumps... I made 4 bridges and 2 nuts for the guitar I just built... and I made like 12 saddles and 6 nuts for my #1 Retop project... I have levelled and crowned frets on #1 4 times, 3 times on #2, and 1x on #3 (That has had strings on it for 2-days now). The neck set on this last guitar took me a LONG time to get right.. but I kept on it till I got the angles all right.

2. Effect on Physical Structural ability to hold together...
This means...
"Structural" Glue joints have to be well done and tight. Braces need to be smooth without cracks and chunks missing, etc. This means braces get cut off if they aren't right, top, sides, and back cracks get fixed and patched... etc.

3. Cosmetic...
Not so important to me, so these are the things I let slide more... All 3 of my guitars so far have some major cosmetic boo-boos... Splices in purflings, finish runs and dips, Hairs, dings, bugs, and chips under the finish, little gaps here and there... etc. Both of my Full On builds are non-symmetrical. Both have little hinky cosmetic stuff that only I know about...

Anyway, this would be my advice to a newer builder... Just keep moving on. Make the goal to Finish it... not to make it Perfect.

Thanks

John
Author:  Corky Long [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
Great question!

I think the answer definitely depends on the level of experience of the builder.

If I had scrapped my first guitar after the 10th, 20th, 50th mistake, I don't think I'd ever have completed it, or any others....(and that guitar has a very visible patch in the back of the neck where the router went right through it... while routing for the truss rod.)

For the first few guitars, I think the primary objective has to be, GET IT DONE, and learn as much as you can in the process. At some point I came to the conclusion that if I could just get through as many mistakes on the first one (or two or three.... laughing6-hehe ) I would have gotten those errors over with, and wouldn't have to revisit them on future guitars.

For the more experienced guys in the group, clearly there's a point where it makes no sense to continue with that screwed up top, or neck, or whatever, but I'd suggest that the newbies soldier on. I learned more from repairing mistakes than I did from getting it right.

I actually think the greatest risk is getting frustrated, and putting the thing under the bed and going to watch TV instead. That's what I've always tried to combat.

P.S. I agree with John above, on the different types of issues. The good thing about setup issues, is that you can go back and improve them after the fact. i know I have on a couple of guitars. And not having a repair background, I really need the practice. I didn't have a clue as to how to set up a guitar properly, and am still pretty green at it.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
Great comments so far, especially the "Perfect is the enemy of good" reminder. You may motivate me to return to these sooner than I thought.

I haven't tossed anything in the burn pile just yet. Some of the mistakes are cosmetic and could probably make a playable guitar. I just wouldn't want to show it to anybody when I know I can and hopefully will do better. I think each one is salvageable to make into a workable guitar. I worked on #1 and #2 concurrently so I got to make a lot of the same mistakes twice which is more efficient. :) I should also add that I have fixed a lot of mistakes along the way, so I'm not opposed to that.

Here are the kinds of mistakes that have made me move on:
Guitar #1 - Cocobolo parlor - Sides at upper bout not parallel with lower bout so guitar rocks when set on it's side. Also got too aggressive with scraping bindings in some areas so binding looks uneven. The sides were already nearly too thin when I started, since I was just learning to use the wagner saf-t-planer. So I can't really remove any more material from the sides to true them up if I wanted to route out and rebind. Also had some gaps in the binding at the waist and a few other areas. I also didn't do a great job on cutting out the area for the tail wedge. My biggest regret on this is using a really nice set of cocobolo on my first.

Guitar #2 - Rosewood parlor - I've already re-routed the bindings/purfling twice and still not happy with it. Part of it was learning how to use the Luthiertool jig... jig tipped in a bit so I had to add a layer of purfling. I also had more problems with gaps in binding. I know now that clamping/taping technique doesn't make up for poorly fitting bindings. I no longer fear the bending pipe so I'm hoping to see great improvements in this area. Again, not a great job on the tail wedge, I redid it a few times going wider and wider and at this point I'm already just slightly wider than the tail block. Also attempted mitering purflings at the tail wedge and still have a lot to learn to fit things together well.

Guitar #3 - Granadillo 00 12-fret - Binding gaps again on this one, though I could re-route and redo them fairly easily. Back split after a dry winter, attempted gluing the crack when it wasn't so dry out and it pulled apart the next winter. I had closed this box in August when humidity outside was high, even though I was using a de-humidifier. I think I didn't let it acclimate long enough after I received it from the supplier. This is also the one where I routed the headstock crooked that I posted about in the biggest mistakes thread.

I feel like I should add the disclaimer again that I don't feel bad or discouraged about all this. I feel like I did a lot of things well on these, too. The only thing I'm really disappointed in is not spending more time up in the shop these last few years.
Author:  Robert Renick [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
I am an amateur luthier but a professional woodworker. Corky and John are in line with my own feelings. I think it is important to set goals and priorities at the beginning of a build. When we learn a song to play on guitar, we expect to hack our way through it many times before we play it pretty, we accept this because it does not cost money to play a song. As many do when learning a song, sometimes you skip the fancy licks and just learn the cords well enough to sing the song, I think Truckjohn's list echos this idea, finish it and move on. Then at the beginning of the next guitar, set new goals based on what can be better.

As a professional woodworker, nothing gets a job done faster then needing the money and other deadlines, not a good thing, but it taught me how to get a job done.

My goal with my first guitar is education, when I am done learning from it, time to move on and use the lessons, so I am right with you right now, time to get #1 wrapped and playable and start #2. My plan is to build 5 parlors now with lumber yard materials, maybe paint the back and neck black and call it a deal. Maple is cheap. My goals on these will be to understand the voicing of these guitars and how to manipulate it. I have some friends who I will give these to, there job is to be a pretend customer and request this and that in tone and playing style and lets see if I can get it. I am trying to limit materials to $200-250.

Frustration is the enemy, hey this is our fun hobby.
Great post, thanks for asking the same question that has been on my mind.
Rob
Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
I guess if I boil down my other post....

I categorize stuff into "Plays" and stuff into "Looks"

The "Looks" stuff is always so visible and so frustrating... like a rough finish or a chip on the soundboard that is too deep to sand out or crazy gaps in the purflings... This stuff drives you nuts and makes you WANT to scrap the guitar.... but it is actually Ok.. just a little ugly... BUT... You can make an amazing playing and sounding guitar that LOOKS pretty rough!

That Cocobolo body will run just fine with thin sides that are a little wavy.... Just make sure you glue in some of those little side braces... Pull that one back off the shelf, buy a neck and FINISH IT!

The "Plays" stuff can be very hard to see... The naked eye and even experienced players have a hard time spotting a Nut/1st fret action that is out of whack... but you sure can hear it when that G-string sticks up 0.008" higher than the B string.... It is really hard to "See" a bridge plate that is 3x too thick... or gaps between braces... or a split brace or a brace end that didn't get glued down... BUT... It just doesn't play right or sound right... You can make an Amazing looking guitar that is only useful as a foot stool or as a funny shaped Bird house!

Like.. Say you sawed your own fret slots... and got 2 of them 1/16" off.... Those 2 notes will never play right.. Good luck tracking that down, though.... especially if one of those is #12...

Here's the Rub....

It is really easy to "Get Rid" of a Guitar that Plays and Sounds awesome... but looks pretty rough... There is always someone who hears it play and plays it and falls in love with it....

It is quite difficult to "Get Rid" of a Guitar that Looks like a Jewel... but Plays and Sounds terrible.... These end up at the local pawn shop selling for $150.00 with no takers... or your brother just finally pitches it in the trash can 2-years later....

Thanks

John
Author:  Rene [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
I agree with Corky, I learn more from fixing my mistakes than if I had got it right from the start. Only thing is, I wish learning for me didn't have to be so frustrating and expensive.

René
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
When it's crap!! :D

Dave F.
Author:  Jamie_M [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
It's an easy answer for me...I have yet to scrap anything, nor do I believe I will - I'm far too stubborn. [headinwall]

I may put it aside for a while and do something else during the interim; however, it will always get done.
Author:  Rod True [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
When it just can't be fixed anymore because I've taken it to far from where it should be (this is a structural issue mostly).

it all depends on how much you have invested in the build. If it's a set of sides that have cupping from bending, I'd say toss them and get a new set. If the body if built and the binding installation hasn't gone well, route the bindings off and start over, don't toss the body. Finish can always be stripped and started over. If you get it all done and found that the sound just isn't there you can do one of two things. Donate the guitar to a new player who just won't know the difference or learn how to remove the top and/or back and shave the braces a bit (or you could do it from the soundhole).

So I think it all depends on these initial criteria:

Can the part can be fixed? Then fix it, if not toss it and start with a new part.
Can the build be salvaged for less then it costs to start over? This has to do with the labor to pull it apart and fix (not replace though as you'd do that in the new build), material cost also has to be considered.

For me, I think I would have a hard time scraping anything (although I've had to and will still have to) if I have any idea that I can fix it, almost regardless of what it costs (time wise).
Author:  Michael Lloyd [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
I have several imperfect parts still laying about the shop as reminders and as conversation pieces. These imperfections always remind me of where I started and sometimes I need that reminder.

The one I like to show the most is the Maple and Sitka box complete with bindings and French polish finish. Quite lovely to look at until you see the back and the damage caused by uncontrolled RH.

I have scrapped and burned in the past but as of late that has become much less frequent likely due to patience which comes with age, increased cost in materials and that most of my parts are machined via jigs.

To continue building on something that could be viewed by others as being fruitless is a personal decision for the builder alone. However, keep some of your mistakes around to reminisce and to someday find the humour in them.

Interesting topic and a great read everyone.
Author:  Flippo [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
Todd Stock wrote:
When I shoot for projecting and get enveloping instead.


Ah yeah! I hate when that happens. laughing6-hehe

Interesting thread. Being a newbie (working on number 3), I never thought about scraping anything. The idea was (and still is) to start a guitar and complete it. Sure there are hundreds of custom errors, but I learn from every one of them. My non-guitar building friends and relatives never see the errors, but they do comment on the finish and playability.

I plan on continuing from start to finish. They may not look great now, but they play great and sound great.

Later, Tony
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
I haven't built many guitars but I've been building other things for many years and for me (and most everyone else I work with) its a question of effort and cost. When is is either easier or less expensive to just rebuild it with new parts then that's what is usually done.

That said, I've fixed a number of things on my instruments just for the experience and sometimes end up replacing the parts anyway :?
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
Uhm... last one, everything seemed to go wrong and it got to teh point where when the box was closed and binding channels cut I just felt ift was too poor to carry on, but rather than scrapping teh lot, rescured teh top and back which is now beingconverted into a smaller bodied tenor - it was wierd, because things had gone wrong early, motivation and enthusiasm waned, which meant care and attention to detail suffered and more things went wrong as a result - as I was already planning the next in my head... by scrapping and converting its returned and hopefully the result will be so much better as a result - and I have learned a thing or two about waht not to do as well....

As an aside....is it just me or do others also find that they are more enthusiastic and inspired by the more amazing the wood used. - Plain walnut (despite being a good tonewood) did nothing for me... but cant wait to get started on some of the more exotic stick I have?
Author:  Dave White [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
Todd Stock wrote:
When I shoot for projecting and get enveloping instead.


You can make any guitar project - just hold it by the headstock and throw. Works every time.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
Haven't scrapped one yet but, like everyone else it seems, I've had to make some "signficant" repairs. I guess my best example is saving some sides I cracked doing a cutaway by lining them with three layer aircraft ply (the guitar sounds great).

Anyway, the main point I want to make is that I think it's important to press on regardless and get one done. Who cares if it's got mistakes? With each one the mistakes will become fewer and you'll be moving right along. Don't paralyze yourself by raising the bar too high right off the bat.

Pat
Author:  letseatpaste [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
Frank Cousins wrote:
As an aside....is it just me or do others also find that they are more enthusiastic and inspired by the more amazing the wood used. - Plain walnut (despite being a good tonewood) did nothing for me... but cant wait to get started on some of the more exotic stick I have?


I really, really regret using a beautiful set of cocobolo on my first. On my second I used "opportunity grade" EIR from Allied and as it started to take shape I really started to appreciate the wood. I was enthused by both and took as much care on each one as my inexperience allowed. I do have a pretty nice little stash of some premium stuff, but it deserves more than my current level of skill will allow... So I'll let it inspire me indirectly while I cut my teeth on the "lesser" woods.

Funny thing was, as I showed friends and family what I was working on, many ooh'd and ahh'd more over the lower grade EIR than the coco.
Image
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
It is important to continue on with the instrument unless it is completely salvageable. The reason is that each step in the process has to be learned and practiced. If you give up because the binding is uneven, than you will not learn how to properly do the next step or learn from the mistakes you make in that step. Consider two methods of learning to play a piece of music. One, you start at the beginning and, if you make a mistake, you start over from the beginning. You could work on that tune for months without ever even attempting to play the second half of it so you won't know where the tricky parts are. Once you finish playing the tune, you know the first half very well and you don't know the second half particularly well at all. The second approach is to try to play the piece all the way through continuing on after mistakes. When you have learned it the second way, you are equally practiced at all parts of the piece. There may be some portions that you repeat before moving on but don't do it too much.
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When do you scrap it and move on?
letseatpaste wrote:
Frank Cousins wrote:
As an aside....is it just me or do others also find that they are more enthusiastic and inspired by the more amazing the wood used. - Plain walnut (despite being a good tonewood) did nothing for me... but cant wait to get started on some of the more exotic stick I have?


I really, really regret using a beautiful set of cocobolo on my first. On my second I used "opportunity grade" EIR from Allied and as it started to take shape I really started to appreciate the wood. I was enthused by both and took as much care on each one as my inexperience allowed. I do have a pretty nice little stash of some premium stuff, but it deserves more than my current level of skill will allow... So I'll let it inspire me indirectly while I cut my teeth on the "lesser" woods.

Funny thing was, as I showed friends and family what I was working on, many ooh'd and ahh'd more over the lower grade EIR than the coco.
Image


That is a nice set. My first was Macassar ebony simply because I thought I would only ever build one - that wa the intention... but maybe it was more to do with teh fact that the most recent plain Jane started to go wrong early and I wa snever happy with teh way it progressed.... down to inexperience and perhaps because it was realtively cheap, maybe I took my eye off the ball and 'rushed a little, but it just strange that since its been stripped back and is being reused in a new format, the attentiaon and enthusiasm is there again... but cant wait to use something more striking though ;-)
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