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| Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25050 |
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| Author: | Paul Burner [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
I'm thinking about my experiences in guitar building and wondering how many of you: A) Build a guitar based on YOUR wants and desires and then offer it up for sale. You make all the decisions on what you want to do and how you want to do it. or B) Build a guitar based on some basic "template" you offer but let the customer pick the woods, inlays, and more for a set price. The customer makes a lot of the decisions on the wood combinations, the binding pieces, cutaway style, inlays, etc. Artistically I'm almost positive I would prefer options A. The business side of me isn't so positive I can market "A" and thinks that "B" is more appealing to the customer. And.... if you do "B" do you reserve the right to say - "Sorry, I won't use purpleheart binding with a redwood top on a bloodwood body" OR...... Do you do an option "C" that I've not mentioned? |
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| Author: | mhammond [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
Along this line of reasoning: Do the big guys build what they want or do they build what they know will sell? How do they keep from getting bored? I build what I want, and have as a consequence, too many guitars laying around the house. I can almost give them away and they'll be gone, but right now its tough to get any resonable money for them....... Mikey |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
I pretty much look at it this way .. if the customer is paying, he can pretty much choose all he wants. That said, I have never had someone order something that is way out there in terms of aesthetics .. we usually come up with ideas together, that form a cohesive vision for what the guitar wil look like. as for consignment builds .. it has to be something sellable .. other wise you are eating it ... other than custom builds, how many maple dreads you see in stores .. none, cause they dont sell. In fact, IME, maple doesnt sell all that well on a guitar unless it mimics a classic maple guitar - J200, Guild jumbo 12 etc .... for instance, Martin makes very few maple 000/OMs .. cause nobody wants one. my number 5 was a gorgeous quilt maple with a chocolate colour cedar top OM.. not really out there , but against typical convention .. sounded great (still does) .. many folks commented how nice it plays and that it sounds wonderful .. but its my house beater right now because nobody would buy it 5 years ago ... |
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| Author: | Bailey [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
I am a commission carving and graphic artist and deal with this all the time. I use my expertise to help shape my clients choices of theme, design, wood...etc. Give your client the information necessary to make a good decision... offer choices that you feel comfortable with...and then give them the reigns. As a guitar builder: I'm still new to... and learning the basics of guitar building, so everything thing I currently do with guitars is an experiment. My guitars look great..but still don't play like the guitar I had custom built for me a few years ago. I am currently.....and probably for the next few builds, only going to build what I want with what I want. Time and experience will open up more options to my customers. I don't trust what I do nearly enough to build a guitar for someone.....other than maybe a family member. I may end up with a room full of guitars and that's OK with me. I'm not in it for the business...or the money. At my age there's no profit left to be had. Kent |
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| Author: | peterm [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
Speaking for myself here... Most my builds are pre-ordered with a very rare exception of a speck guitar here and there to keep me exploring new possibilities. Some customers are not the best at matching woods and colors and their choices sometimes offer much of a visual clash so I try to offer opinions and hopefully they make the right choice. Bottom line, its their call and I'll gladly build whatever makes them happy. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
As I am only working on # 6 and 7 and have only sold 1 guitar, I am building every guitar for myself, each one has been different in some way. A cutaway OM, Dread, Small Jumbo, SJ wedge, Cocobolo OM. OM cutaway wedge, and a 12 fret 000. I don't yet have the confidence to build a commissioned guitar and being retired this is for fun not profit. Needless to say what I have built has been with conventional tone woods and styles and have been well received by players, I like to keep them all but need to move a couple more to make space. Fred |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
Remember the Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rule." I think any of us will be more comfortable making some things than others: I'm not a particular fan of Dreads, and don't build them. If somebody wants one, I'll happily send them on to somebody like Mario who will make it. I had a nice talk with Frank Ford once, about the business of selling guitars. He said that the easiest thing for him to sell is an exact copy of a Martin. 'Improved' copies, like Collings', are even easier. The hardest thing to sell is something that's _almost_ like a Martin, but not quite. People assume you were not good enough to make a 'real' copy, so there's probably something wrong with it. By comparison your own shape might be easier, but it's still going to be a hard sell. 'Unusual' woods and so on can be the kiss of death. I practically had to give away my last oak 000, even though everybody who tried it really liked it. Everybody has this sort of problem. I remember reading that Jim D'Aquisto just could not get away from making 'New Yorkers' until Chinery commissioned him to build the blue guitar. He'd try to get people to accept something a little different, but they just wanted one like the ones they'd seen. You can't blame the customers for that, of course: it's alot of money to gamble, although one would think that a builder with his rep would improve the odds a lot. I've made a few 'R&D Specials'. I build a 'plain brown' guitar with something I want to try out, and the customer agrees to take it, however it turns out. In return, they get it for half price. Nobody has been unhappy with the guitar yet: they've all worked out pretty well and I've learned some things. In many ways I think it's easier to talk somebody into something 'different' on a commission than to sell something 'different' on spec. The customer came to me, presumably, because he has an idea of what I can do, and believes that I know what I'm talking about (HAH! Fooled another one!). If I tell him that this set of Osdage orange will make a guitar that will sound as good as BRW, and cost a lot less, and I can cite chapter and verse as to why, it's less risky for me than making an Osage guitar and sticking it up on the rack. This may become less of an issue over time, as more of the 'traditional' woods become scarce. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
I think you have to experience the pros and cons of each way and decide what is best for your personality. I gravitated to selling off the wall at a store so I can build what I want to. Like Al said the advice I got was the same for the store guitars. "Make it look like a Martin" The guitars on the wall definitely generate commissions though. Terry |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
When I build on spec, I build what I want. When I build a commission, I build what they want. |
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| Author: | Hank Mauel [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
The only "spec" guitars I build are for the festivals. All the others have been/will be to customer specifications. And they are encouraged to come to the shop, if possible, to pick and choose, thump and tap, flex and scratch the wood. And smell, too, if it's Brazilian.  So, about 20-25 of my total production over the past 15 years have been specs that went to shows...primarily the Healdsburg Festival. |
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| Author: | Christian Schmid [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
So far - and I haven't built much - each and every decisiion has been driven by me. So I never used very traditional tonewoods (a redwood/walnut classical, right now a cedar/tiger myrtle - my most traditional would probably be a sitka/bubinga OM). In my tonewood purchases over the past few months however, I tried to get a good sample of more traditional woods like various rosewoods and mahagonies. Part of this was driven by the expectation that it would be easier to sell, so my future guitars will be more customer driven (or market driven). I figured that the by far most enjoyable part is building itself and trying to bring out the best of a certain tonewood combo. Whether that combo is traditional or something completely unusual is really secondary. Christian |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
Though I haven't visited it in a while, Mike Doolin's site used to note a few of his requirements. He took the privilege of establishing a set of aesthetic requirements. While his represent and maintain his brand, I don't see why you couldn't establish a few of your own. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
I go with choice B. I'm fortunate to have made some extra guitars with different woods,scale lengths,neck widths,rosettes,trim,etc........ These I keep in my shop for clients to try,and see the way the woods look in a finished guitar. And get an idea of what those different elements look & feel like. I occasionaly make a guitar for myself that always flys out the door within a few months after making it and showing it. I have ecclectic taste . Some players are taken by looks,but most want good tone and playabilty. And of course they can have both when they work closely with the guitarmaker. Mike |
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| Author: | Neil Gardiner [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
I have been asking myself similar questions. I am currently just finishing up my first commission. And I have to say, it's not as much fun making someone else's guitar ideas as it is deciding as you go and taking a more spontaneous approach. And it's nerve wracking. There has been some positives from building for someone else though: Firstly I have met someone who shares the same interest and passion for guitars as I do. And will likely continue the friendship. I find myself being much more demanding and careful and critical of this build, so I'm sure it's making me a better builder. It led me to build a guitar out of Cuban Mahogany which I might not have chosen for myself. And it is wonderful wood. This customer has been very open minded. I changed things along the way for example changing from Cocobola binding to East Indian. It just looked better. And he was cool with it. Also part of the deal with this customer is that he is under no obligation to take it. So the guitar is mine until he says yes. Maybe not a great business model, but I've only made 7 guitars and I want everyone who has one of my guitars to be happy with them. So, as it stands I can see positives both ways. I suspect I will do a combination for awhile and let the process evolve. I have the luxury in that I am not trying to make a living doing this. My goal at this point is to break even. Which in itself is not the easiest task. Interesting question - good to hear thoughts of others. Neil |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Are your builds for sale customer driven or builder driven? |
most of my builds are commission contacts so the customer dictates the design but when I can I like to build based on pre war Martin designs. I find that the martin design is marketable and there is demand for them . I started 10 years ago and I can now get 5 figures on builds. I have a year waiting list . |
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