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Buffer Recommendation?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=25023		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Parser [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Buffer Recommendation?
Hand polishing is losing it's appeal real quickly. A buffer seems to be the best tool for the job....can anyone share any recommendations for buffing equipment? The stewmac setup looks great, but at $500 does not seem like much of a deal.

I found this one online...what do you think? 1100 rpm is a bit slower than the 1750 that most buffers seem to run at...but I'm thinking that this little setup would be a good step up from hand polishing/the random orbital that I'm using right now.
http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/wood_pol.html

My woodworking has gotten good enough that it I feel the need to bring my finish quality up a notch as well. It also wouldn't hurt to save some time in the build process where I can..!

Thanks,
Trev
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
I started out with 1750 on 10" wheels and found it a little too aggressive and slowed my arbor speed down with different pulleys to around 1100. I get my wheels from Caswell plating as they also have a have a Canadian branch.

Fred
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
my set up is a grizzly buffer arbor http://grizzly.com/products/Buffing-Assembly/H3559 to this I use an oversize buffing wheel H5769 and a smaller on at 12 inches . This gives me instant speed changes from one wheel to the other. I also use only 1/4 hp motor . This way I can hang onto the guitar without it getting thrown .
The only thing with this set up is you need to make a arbor bushing for the 3/4 to 1 1/4 you need for the larger wheels you need for the set up. It works great for me and took my finishing to a very high level.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Seems a good deal except that buffs are only 12"! I use Caswells 14" wheels on a benchtop rig (motor & arbor mounted on plywood) that I drag out once in a blue moon. (Don't know why their offer includes 12".....maybe they'll upgrade.)
Author:  Mark Groza [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Parser wrote:
Hand polishing is losing it's appeal real quickly. A buffer seems to be the best tool for the job....can anyone share any recommendations for buffing equipment? The stewmac setup looks great, but at $500 does not seem like much of a deal.

I found this one online...what do you think? 1100 rpm is a bit slower than the 1750 that most buffers seem to run at...but I'm thinking that this little setup would be a good step up from hand polishing/the random orbital that I'm using right now.
http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/wood_pol.html

My woodworking has gotten good enough that it I feel the need to bring my finish quality up a notch as well. It also wouldn't hurt to save some time in the build process where I can..!

Thanks,
Trev

That looks like a nice set-up for the money.Even comes with a self-contained motor which will take up less space and the rpms are in the right ballpark too.
Author:  patmguitars [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Hi Trev

I too thought the commercial setups were a bit expensive. So, I bought a 1725RPM, 3/4 HP motor with an on/off switch assembly at a local electronics store and ordered a 5/8 arbour attachement, buffing wheels and supplies from Caswell.

The whole thing cost me about $125. It works like a charm! (BTW, I have very little knowledge in electronics. If I can put that together safely, anybody can)

Cheers

Pat
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
I have the Caswell buffer and their 14" canton flannel wheels. I think it's a good setup. Keep in mind it's also my first, so I don't have the background per se to offer a critical review.

So far I've buffed two finishes with it, but neither got the mirror high gloss I was hoping for. I don't know if that's technique, the canton flannel, or the finish itself. Neck making and the finishing process are my focus areas this year.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Great thread. I was just thinking what I am going to do for buffing.

What about this buffer from grizzly? Pretty cheap...

http://grizzly.com/products/8-Buffer-w-5-8-Arbor/H4380

But maybe the inconveinence of poor quality will linger long after the thrill of a bargain is forgotten, as someones sig reads... (I love that!).
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
2 things you need to look at , 1 speed , and 2nd space to work , this is not for finish buffing . The original link I placed will give you a great set up. One note : you don't need much power. Too much power will take the guitar out of your hand and toss it very fast . I use 1/4 hp at 1725 rpm . This is slowed to about a 700 rpm on the arbor.
Too much speed and power can burn through lacquer and other finished rather quickly . Nothing or more frustrating to spend 100 hrs and watch the body get smashed in front of your eyes. I actually seen someone take a guitar to the buffer with the strap attached. This is one of those , it is funnier when it happens to someone else. As the tech was buffing , the strap got caught on the other arbor , this took the guitar out of his hands and had the guitar spinning , hitting the wall , the floor the ceiling . I think he learned a valuable lesson as did the customer. I wish I had a video camera , as today it can be rather funny but at the time , it was a jaw dropping experience.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Ah yes I guess that one is rather quick, I guess for metalworking. Thats a really scary story John! eek
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
it was funny and something I will never forget
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
I have the Caswell rig. It's OK for acrylic, but anything harder like polyester or the UV curable stuff takes for frickin ever to buff out, even sanded to 2000 grit. I've never buffed nitro or any varnish so I don't know how it would work for that. For what it's worth, I'm looking to upgrade to something faster and with bigger wheels. It is a good machine though, got me through about 25 guitars when I was using KTM-9. I have nothing bad to say about it except that I feel it is underpowered.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Edward Taylor wrote:
Great thread. I was just thinking what I am going to do for buffing.

What about this buffer from grizzly? Pretty cheap...

http://grizzly.com/products/8-Buffer-w-5-8-Arbor/H4380

But maybe the inconveinence of poor quality will linger long after the thrill of a bargain is forgotten, as someones sig reads... (I love that!).


Way to small of wheels way to short of shaft and too high rpm
Author:  joe white [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
The Caswell buffer is a nice machine. I have two. 1100 RPM is fine. RPM is not as important as the surface speed. It can be measured with a cool little tachometer/surface speed tool. There are also charts available that give the breakdown of surface speed based on the RPM and size of the buffing wheel. It is measured in feet per minute. Check with the material that you are buffing and base your surface speed on that. Then, buy the correct wheels to acheive that speed. I am running 16" wheels with my Caswells to achieve the correct surface speed for buffing polyester. The nice thing with the Caswells is the shaft spacing. The buffs are about 30+ inches apart when installed. Research the different wheel materials and compounds too. The buffing wheels can make or break your buffing time. Here's a little shot of my Caswell rig.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
So the larger the wheel the higher the surface speed. What size wheel would you run for waterborne at 1100 rpm?
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Also Joe, are those acrylic wheels you use?

Thanks
Author:  joe white [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Edward, I don't use waterborne so it would be best to check with your supplier/rep for the best surface speed for your finish. Larger wheels do increase the surface speed. As for wheels, I get mine from Jascar/Menzerna USA. They have a minimum order but is is usually pretty easy to get there if you get your wheels and compound from them. I use two different wheels based on the compunds and finish I use. There really is a science to this and the suppliers have gone down this road many times and are better equipped to supply you the best wheels for your needs based on your finish. I have a stack of different wheels that I went through on my own trying to find the right balance. [uncle]
Author:  Darryl Young [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
I can't help with the speed needed for a specific finish, but I can tell you haow to calculate the suface speed.

The circumference of a circle: PI X D
where PI= 3.14159 and D=diameter of the wheel

If D is in inches, the above calculates how many inches of the wheel come in contact with the guitar for every revolution (inches per revolution or in/rev.

Now multiply the in/rev by the revolutions per minute (revs/min or RPM)

in/rev X rev/minute= in/min (inches per minute

Now we have a speed and the only thing left is to convert it to the units you want. We will shoot for feet/sec (feet per second). First, convert to ft/min. Take your in/min and divide by 12.

in/min / 12 in/ft = ft/min (feet per minute)

Take the ft/min and divide by 60 sec/minute (seconds per minute) to get your final answer in feet per second (ft/sec):

ft/min / 60 sec/min = ft/sec (feet per sec) this is the speed in feet per second.

You will have to rework the formula some to determine the RPM or diameter wheel needed for a specific velocity.
Author:  joe white [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Well Daryl, yeah,,,,,,,,you could do that. gaah

Or just refer to this chart.


http://www.schaffnermfg.com/speed-chart.html
Author:  sanaka [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
joe white wrote:
Well Daryl, yeah,,,,,,,,you could do that. gaah

Or just refer to this chart.


http://www.schaffnermfg.com/speed-chart.html


Nothing wrong with charts obviously, but the math here is truly simple. Joe you indicated feet per minute as the desired units of rate. To condense what Darryl said, it's: PI x wheel diameter x RPM, then divide that by 12.

As in, 16" wheel at 1100 RPM is: (3.14 x 16 x 1100) / 12 = 4608 ft./min.

I keep calculators around everywhere, so could punch it through faster than it takes to find a chart :)

Peace,
Sanaka
Author:  joe white [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
It's all good Sanaka and I didn't mean to discredit Darryl's kind assistant. Just though the chart might be helpful for those of us that are mathmetically dysfunctional. laughing6-hehe

The one thing you need to know is the true RPM at the shaft and not everyone has a little tach' to measure that. The one I have measures shaft speed and surface speed so no math needed. [:Y:]
Author:  meddlingfool [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Joe,
Could you post some more info on where you get your wheels? The Caswell site seems to have nothing in 16", and Jascar/Menzerna USA goes nowhere at all in a Google search...
Thanks
Author:  Aaron O [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
I'm going to echo what John stated, low power. I run a 1/3 hp with a belt tensioned by the weight of the motor, on the "old" StewMac buffer (sans motor). Nice thing about belt drive with weight tension is that is slips, when it needs to. I usually order Canton Wheels from Grizzly, and they've worked well on Nitro and Polyurethane. The only issue I have is that the shaft is 1", and the wheels have 1 1/4" holes. Yes, I have a bushing (also from Grizzly, cheap), but personally, even with 12" wheels at the end, the shaft seems too small. My next upgrade will be pillow block bearings like http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT which should fit the wheels better. The only issue is getting the shaft correct, at a reasonable cost (I've seen anywhere from $50 - over $100), then threaded both ways, and flanges. In the big scheme of things, I'll end up spending a couple hundred, but, it'll be exactly what I need (I'd like more space away from the center, so I need a thicker shaft).

BTW - my friend has the new StewMac, and its works really well.

Aaron
Author:  joe white [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
meddlingfool wrote:
Joe,
Could you post some more info on where you get your wheels? The Caswell site seems to have nothing in 16", and Jascar/Menzerna USA goes nowhere at all in a Google search...
Thanks


DOOP! It might help if I spelled it correctly. Sorry.


http://www.jescar.com/about.html
Author:  meddlingfool [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Buffer Recommendation?
Thank you sir,
I don't suppose you'd share which buffs you are finding success with for your finish?
Thanks
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