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Lot of Trees!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=24958		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Lot of Trees!
Hey guys!

My grand'ma have some land of forest and they told me I could take wathever I want! I spotted, for sure, an nice Sugar Maple, there's at least 30 feet of straight before appears any branch... Not sure about the size of it, but i'm pretty sure I can get out 8-9-10inch quartersawn pieces. So, here is my first question:

1- What Suger Maple could be good for ? (Neck, B & S, Electric Tops, Solid Bodies, Fingerboard, etc)

And I have a second question.

2- What other species, there, could be useful in lutherie? I'll enumerate some species i've seen (Sorry if translation is bad, i'm a french speaker so...) Oh and forget to tell the location (could be good...) It's in North Est of America (Province of Quebec, south of it, near the Ontario)

- Spruce (white, red...)
- Some species of Pine
- Fir
- Cedar (couldn't say wich species...)
- Sugar Maple
- Silver Maple ..? (Érable argenté)
- Oak (red, withe)
- Elm
- Aspen
- Birch
- Poplar

And I know they're some basswood (but rare..), Black Walnut and Ash in the region, but still not find in the grand'ma lands... still searching! In fact, I know there was a HUGE black walnut right in front in the house... ...been destroyed and buried under an highway gaah [headinwall] eek idunno
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
Interesting question, seems like a lot of those timbers could have some kind of use. Do you know if the sugar maple has figure? I have a few maples on my property and am wondering how you tell if there is figure.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
I think i'll know it when the wood will get out of the mill...
Author:  Mitch Johnson [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
Sometimes your able to tell from the outside of the tree where bark has been lost whether it's figured or not. Just because one part is, doesn't mean the whole tree is, but it can give you an idea. Also flamed maple usually shows up mostly on the quartered surface of maple. Quilted shows up more on flatsawn maple, but that's not very often, if at all in sugar maple. This picture was taken of a sugar maple in the UP of Michigan last summer.
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
If you have red spruce that is large enough for tops, that would be the best find of woods you have listed. The sugar maple would be good for back and sides if it's curly. I made a sugar maple guitar that I like a lot. I use poplar for linings, but I think it's tulip poplar. Ken Parker made a beautiful arch top guitar with curly aspen back and sides.
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
I don't know about Sugar maple, but with Bigleaf , you can clearly see the figure without damaging the tree. The bark will have a regular pattern of ripples which give you a good idea of how intense & extensive the figure is. As Mitch said... The figure doesn't often go through the entire tree. Sometimes it peters out just a few feet up the trunk.
Sounds like quite a resource you have there...
Author:  caribou [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
Sugar maple (Acer saccharum) is also known as "hard maple", very used for electric guitars necks. It could be suitable for back and sides I guess. This specie could be curly but could give bird eyes pattern too...
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
you need a bit more of a tree than what you are describing . If the tree isn't at least 24 inches it isn't even close. Till you clean out the center , and cut off the sap wood you I doubt you will have a big enough tree to get many back sets . Again , is the tree straight , is the grain even ,is there inclusions ? Just because it is a tree doesn't me it will be good for guitars . Luthier grade needs to be straight nice even grain , no twists or internal defects . It is amazing how many small defects you will find in a "good tree " .
Ralph S Charles of New York gave a speach at ASIA Symposium . On average he will look at about 1000 logs to find 1 suitable for luthier grade . That doesn't mean you don't have something useful but you need to know that the odds are not in your favor. Good luck.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
I know that's a guess, but anyways, i'll try it. If the wood is not good enough for lutherie, you can be sure it'll be useful for anything else. I have many other projects.

BTW, Thanks everyone for the replies! I'll surely try to get out some guitar and bass necks, and will keep 2-3 logs to see if it could be nice for back and sides.

Ken Franklin wrote:
If you have red spruce that is large enough for tops, that would be the best find of woods you have listed. The sugar maple would be good for back and sides if it's curly. I made a sugar maple guitar that I like a lot. I use poplar for linings, but I think it's tulip poplar. Ken Parker made a beautiful arch top guitar with curly aspen back and sides.


I always tought spruce from here isn't growing in the best condition for lutherie stuck...
Author:  Mark Groza [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
Hi Ti-Roux, I have milled thousands of board ft. of maple and have found it to be flamed at the crotch most the time.However, the flamed trees i've cut were flamed all the way up with the best flame at the stump(sometimes quilted). IF you know how to read the bark, it will tell whats inside the tree. Sugar maple is one of the best woods for figure.And it's great for necks and fretboards.And because it doesn't need to be porefilled, it's also good for back & side sets.It's one of my favorite woods for guitar building.
Author:  Ron Belanger [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
I agree with what John Hall said. :|
Author:  Mark Groza [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
Your spruce would also be good for tops if it is big enough.But could be used for braceing anyway if not, as long as the tree has straight grain with very little runout.Aspen is good for lining, so small would be good there as well.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
Could you possibly scrape of a small section of the bark to check for figure then spray paint it or something so the tree is not harmed?
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
What John said.....

Also, of all the species you've listed, of course the red spruce sounds really interesting, but the 1000 to 1 issue of "logs" to "logs suitable for luthiery" is the issue. Of course, if you're like me, there's a certain satisfaction in building something from wood you've cut down, milled, dried, etc. Even if it's not perfect for luthiery, could be cool to have some tops from a red spruce on your property. I'm not the expert, for sure, but I understand the issue is runout, from trees that grow in a corkscrew fashion - which is common. You don't want tops with runout. And of course, size, as John has explained. Takes a very large red spruce to produce tops that are wide enough, and quartersawn across the breadth of them.

Any sycamore on the property? I've heard that makes great back and side sets.

I've worked with silver maple (from a tree on my property) for my first guitar. While it is pretty, and bends very easily, I don't recommend it for back and sides. Too soft, and the tap tone isn't much (cardboard, anyone?). The guitar ended up ok, but I wouldn't do it again.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
I don't think i'll cut spruce down, or maybe only for bracing stock, but I have a lot already, so... But, what I heard about Sugar Maple makes me happy! And if it's not flamed, it would make great necks and fingerboards anyway. I just hop if I can see figures and make B&S. Is it a way to see if they're figure by checking the end grain (after i've cut it in 2-3feet logs)?
Author:  Mark Groza [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
You won't find figure in the endgrain.Just take a draw knife to the log to check.
Author:  Bob Hames [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
Hi

While it's true that in most species the sapwood is not desirable,
the opposite is true in regards to Sugar (or Hard) Maple.
I used to run a smaller sawmill operation here in S. Ontario and we
cut in the neighbourhood of 8000 bd. ft. a week of either H. Maple
(or Basswood). It was very easy to sell the sap, but the brown heartwood
was a beast to find a home for.

S. Ontario has some of the best H. Maple in the world, so if you fall within
this latitude you may indeed have some nice Maple. H.
Maple from Northern Ontario, on the other hand, generally has very large brown hearts with little
white sapwood.

You might consider getting your hands on a tool called an "increment borer"
which is a hand tool that you twist into the tree horizontally, and allows you
to remove a small dia. core sample. This would allow you to assess if the tree
has enough sapwood to make harvesting worthwhile. The extracted core, if
handled carefully can be replaced in the tree and sealed with tree wound gunk.

Tip: It makes a difference when you fell the trees. Trees felled in the spring/summer
when the sap is "up" must be milled very quickly and the lumber stickered properly
or it will develop staining rapidly. This is less of a concern when felled in fall/winter
when the sap is "down".

The basswood on the other hand can be really good from the North, but in S. Ont.
anything of size is generally hollow in the centre and full of bird peck.

Cheers
Bob Hames
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
Thanks to every ones!
I'm going there this week end, so i'll check if i can see figures on some, and check exact diameters. Also my father called me to say that they find a giant Black Walnut deep in a swamp. I Think I'll be able to get it during the winter at the same time i'll take one hard maple. I'll show you when i'll get it!!!
Author:  Mark Groza [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
I agree with Bob about the sapwood being what you want as the heartwood is dark and prone to cracking.The sapwood is the light wood and the less mineral staining the better.Hopefully the heartwood is of small diameter on your trees and you will get some nice sapwood for your guitars.Also i have found that trees growing in wet areas are more likely to have figure in them.Good luck with your trees and let us know how it turns out.
Author:  truckjohn [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
If you are really interested in cutting trees for Lutherie and not just for Furniture/lumber... you really need to talk with some of the guys who cut Tonewood. For the economic value of 1 good sized tree.... you could easily pay one of those guys to come up, do a survey, and train you on proper cutting/resawing techniques, etc....

I am by no means a sawyer or miller, but I have seen thousands of bd-ft of lumber ruined by millers who don't know what they are doing during Sawing and Drying operations... All you need to do is start visiting your local small-time millers to see what happens when they don't cut and dry wood properly... Lumpy, twisty boards full of cracks, checks, honeycomb, etc... You can easily ruin several trees before you even know what you did wrong.

Thanks

John
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
I know the guy who'll saw it, and i'll be with him when sawing, and i'll dry it by my self.
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lot of Trees!
I only been involved around sawmills for 30 years, I stick to my original advice.
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