Hi Eric,
I'm very interested to see/follow your progress on your sitar project! I have no input for you though, sorry, I just think it's very cool
![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
Cheers,
Dave F.
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| Author: | drawandpaint [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | sitar project |
Does anyone know how wide a sitar neck is? I'm guessing 3 to 3.5". Maybe 3.5 to 4.25" on a surbahar. I've measured that I can pretty safely fit 13 or 15 tarab (sympathetic) strings into a 3.25" wide neck as well as have what I am guessing to be ample meend (bending) room. Thoughts, notes anyone? I came to my size conclusions by taking photographs of sitars and bringing them up to estimated scale in photoshop, but I know this is inaccurate because a sitar pictured is hardly ever the sitar being sold. IE when it says the toomba (gourd) is a 14 incher, who knows if it's 12, 13, or 15. Which throws everything outta whack. When I am through with this project, I will post a blog detailing EVERY step and misstep of the way because the whole sitar world scammy and/or secretive. and oy vey, is it ever dramatic with every sitar maker accusing every other sitar maker of ripping him off. Come on, is this high school!? Anti-progress I guess. Okay, digression. thank you Eric btw I think this is my introductory post even though I've been stalking for a little while : P. Hello luthiers! |
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| Author: | Dave Fifield [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Hi Eric, I'm very interested to see/follow your progress on your sitar project! I have no input for you though, sorry, I just think it's very cool Cheers, Dave F. |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
I have a Sitar and I just measured the neck at 3 1/2". I bought it in Greenwich Village during my hippy days and took lessons on it. Don't ask me anything technical about it because that was 40 years ago and there is no way I remember anything. I'd be happy to take any other measurements though. The sitar basically sits on a high shelf in my living room as decoration. Hope that helps. Wendy |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
By the way, what is the surbahar? And that measurement of 3 1/2" includes a decorative higher border on each side, of about 1/4" each. The sympathetic strings (or whatever they are called) fall into the scooped area between, which measures 3". Hope that makes it a little more clear. I seem to remember an article a while back in the GAL magazine about sitar making. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
callyrox wrote: I seem to remember an article a while back in the GAL magazine about sitar making. You're correct- there have been several articles over the years. (I used to have a sitar.) BRB= BigRedBook AL= American Luthierie Basic Sitar Repair by Thom Lipiczky BRB1 p.94 Sitar Repair by Dave Schneider BRB1 p.432 AL#11 p.24 Sitar Making in India by Jay Scott Hackleman AL#67 p.6 There's a searchable (with your browser's search- Ctrl-F) page with GAL abstracts at http://www.luth.org/al-content.htm Building a sitar without one 'in hand' for comparison would be a tricky job! I'm interested in the 'whole story' from Eric, at some point in the future. Cheers John |
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| Author: | drawandpaint [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Thank you Wendy! A Surbahar is a "bass sitar". If you are offering, and if it is of no trouble to you, I would be thankful to know the bridge to nut length (should be 33.5 I think — standard but subject to variation per instrument or maker) and also the gourd width (across the face plate) and neck "thickness". Feel free to post pictures too if you want! I love seeing older sitars. I have been collecting pictures for years. What is GAL magazine? I wonder if this was what was published in there — the only document I have found regarding sitar construction. http://www.sitar-tabla.com/sitar%20making.pdf |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
drawandpaint wrote: What is GAL magazine? Guild of American Luthiers http://www.luth.org/ Cheers John |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
I measured from the nut to the bridge. The bridge is odd, in that there is a ridge which I think would be comparable to a saddle on a guitar, and that is the point on the bridge that I measured from. The distance to the front of the nut from that point is 35.5". What's odd is that the strings are in contact with the bridge over the whole width of the bridge and I am going to just assume that is because they are very old and very slack. The width of the faceplate at the widest point is 14". The total neck thickness appears to be 1 5/8" at the head, and even throughout the length of the neck. And where the course of sympathetic strings run it is scooped out and concave. I don't have the proper measuring devices here in the house, so if you need to know how deep that concavity is in the center, let me know and I will measure it for you another day. I won't have time to do it tomorrow though. Hope that helps. I hope you can post pictures of the progress as you build it. GAL is the Guild Of American Luthiers and they publish a quarterly magazine. |
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| Author: | drawandpaint [ Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Thank you for doing all of that for me! The strings should more or less contact the entire bridge. When they're tight and tuned you might see them come up of the bridge a little bit (just a hair) but the contact with the "jawari" style bridge is what causes the buzzy harmonics. You measured from the perfect point, at the indentation! The concavity is definitely less critical than the other measurements and I think I understand the basics of that feature of the instrument. I won't need you to attempt that one but I appreciate you offering to measure it also. As soon as I choose a tonewood and get to work, I will start posting pictures and/or a link to the blog I intend to keep posted. Thoughts on sitar tonewoods: Generally, sitars are made out of Tun aka Indian Red Cedar, but some are made from very old teak; often salvaged from failing architecture or looted from palaces when the British Raj fell in 1947. Purportedly this wood reaches maturation for musical application after many, many years. I speculate that this is due to the oily/waxy (I don't know what it is but if you've ever cut into it you get spongy foam instead of sawdust) nature of Teak requiring prolonged periods to dry. My initial suspicion is that a sitar needs a very warm resonating body (perhaps even "dull" to a guitar's standard) to contradict the harshness of long fine gauge strings buzzing on a Jawari bridge, but I haven't confirmed this. |
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| Author: | sanaka [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Quote: Thoughts on sitar tonewoods: Generally, sitars are made out of Tun aka Indian Red Cedar, but some are made from very old teak; often salvaged from failing architecture or looted from palaces when the British Raj fell in 1947. Purportedly this wood reaches maturation for musical application after many, many years. I speculate that this is due to the oily/waxy (I don't know what it is but if you've ever cut into it you get spongy foam instead of sawdust) nature of Teak requiring prolonged periods to dry. My initial suspicion is that a sitar needs a very warm resonating body (perhaps even "dull" to a guitar's standard) to contradict the harshness of long fine gauge strings buzzing on a Jawari bridge, but I haven't confirmed this. Add me to the list of those very interested in seeing your progress! That's interesting about Teak being used for sitars. I love working Teak and it is in many ways the king of all woods. But I think you're right that it would be as dull as it gets for a guitar tone wood due to that heavy waxy oil that pervades it. I never thought about that stuff eventually oxidizing to something more elastic and lively, but perhaps it can over many years, and maybe only in thin sections. If you end up not able to find Tun or 60 year old Teak, I'd think this forum is exactly the right place to find advice on suitable facsimile species  Peace, Sanaka |
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| Author: | drawandpaint [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
sanaka wrote: Quote: If you end up not able to find Tun or 60 year old Teak, I'd think this forum is exactly the right place to find advice on suitable facsimile species Right now my two inclinations are toward Zebrawood or Philippine Mahogany. I think that the latter might be similar to Indian Red Cedar, or Tun — worst case, it should prove to be resonant and warm, or "not bright enough for guitar". I'm ruling out 60 year old teak for now but will stand corrected should the case prove to be a British occupation ending in India in my neck of the woods any time soon. Furniture that old would be a shame to pillage I would think. My thoughts on Zebrawood come initially from a creative perspective but are reinforced by reports of it adding considerable warmth to most woods an electric guitar top. Zebrawood might be very difficult to work with though. It looks like it has an impossibly gnarly grain, like bamboo run through a food processor. Philipine Mahogany: butter Zebrawood $18-24/bf Philippine Mahog $2/bf on sale right now So there's that also. Maybe I'll make two. I am still in sketching phase. Also, I am puzzled by what to use for fake ivory. In India, they use a cheap plastic material called "celluloid". Same material as pickguards and picks but I can't find it in large sheets in ivory colour. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Eric- re: Wood choices (trying to remember what my sitar was like..20 yrs later.) The 'Philippine mahogany' aka 'luan' I've seen is not much like 'other' mahoganies and I wouldn't bother with it. I think that's what's in the necks of the Chinese-made Epiphones that you see all over eBay (with broken necks). African mahogany (Khaya?) or one of the Central/S. American mahoganies would be a better bet, even though more expensive (You won't need that much of it?). If you are going to be fitting friction pegs, you want a wood with some structural strength and integrity, I think. Your appraisal of zebrawood matches mine- very 'rowed' grain; I wouldn't want to have to carve it. Do you want the 'typical' red/orange look on your sitar? If not, then you could consider something like walnut - reasonable price, and easy to work, not too heavy. Where are you going to get the gourds you need? Cheers John |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
BTW, I don't think that many palaces were looted after Indian Independence. Although the 'Princely States' were forced to cede their lands to the Central Government, the Princes/rajahs/Nawabs, etc retained their residences- many are still occupied by members of the same families. Teak and other termite-resistant hardwoods are common ( in door and window frames- the rest of most homes is brick and mortar, concrete, or in villages, mud/plaster) in even quite modest Indian homes, so the story about the teak for Ravi Shankar's sitar (coming from a looted palace) may be a bit embellished. Cheers John |
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| Author: | drawandpaint [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
JohnAbercrombie wrote: Your appraisal of zebrawood matches mine- very 'rowed' grain; I wouldn't want to have to carve it. Do you want the 'typical' red/orange look on your sitar? Where are you going to get the gourds you need? I've found a few dried gourd suppliers online. I've emailed them about extra large gourds (14") and they have them available per special order but are "rarely very symmetrical". This is the best i can do right now as I can't find pumpkins anymore (yikes, merely a month late!) and can't wait to dry one anyhow, much less grow one. Once a gourd is dried, it's possible to soak it to soften the outside like "leather" for working into symmetry. I may end up doing this for ordered gourds. Unfortunately they are around $30 a piece, so I can't order many or afford to ruin many. Or any. I don't want it to be red per usual. I want it do be blond (and semi-gloss, not french polish) with ebony trim/accents within which I may inlay ivory if I get so far. I have access to a laser so this will be easy for me to accomplish. Walnut is a good idea, but right now I am thinking that if I am going to build a sitar I aught to go the extra mile and make it out of something acceptable tonally and exquisite visually. Would anyone suggest milling zebrawood? |
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| Author: | drawandpaint [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
JohnAbercrombie wrote: the story about the teak for Ravi Shankar's sitar (coming from a looted palace) may be a bit embellished. Thanks for your knowledge. Yes, I took this story with a grain of salt as well. I keep finding story after story of sitars coming from palaces and it's ridiculous. . . : ) |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Eric- Do you own a sitar now? Without decent plans, I can't imagine trying to build one without something to copy. My recollection was that there was a lot of detailed work in mine. I see decent-looking sitars often on Craigslist, but they may be just 'tourist' items. Just for historical interest- mine was made in '68 with 'all the options' (double gourds,etc) and I think it cost me Rs900. That was about $30US at the time, but I was only earning Rs385/month (teaching high school)! I paid for it out of my savings from Canada. The builder took a few months to make it (with helper), between repair jobs and simpler instruments.Cheers John |
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| Author: | drawandpaint [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
JohnAbercrombie wrote: Eric- Do you own a sitar now? Without decent plans, I can't imagine trying to build one without something to copy. My recollection was that there was a lot of detailed work in mine. I see decent-looking sitars often on Craigslist, but they may be just 'tourist' items. Just for historical interest- mine was made in '68 with 'all the options' (double gourds,etc) and I think it cost me Rs900. That was about $30US at the time, but I was only earning Rs385/month (teaching high school)! I paid for it out of my savings from Canada. The builder took a few months to make it (with helper), between repair jobs and simpler instruments.Cheers John I do not own one now. This is a major shot in the dark. Most all sitars on ebay or craigslist are tourist models. I don't really have the extra $300-900 to pay for a model for my project. I feel that the features movable frets and a movable bridge are the saving graces that will allow me to achieve perfect or near perfect intonation on whatever instrument I do come up with in the process of building a sitar. Everything else I am deducing by using high quality images that I am adapting to scale in photoshop for reference. From there I will tweak and fit things as I see fit. Gee, I can't wait until the stage where I get to mess with parabolic fret curvature. . . |
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| Author: | OlivierMTL [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Hello, i'm Olivier From Montreal, i've spent 4 month in India in Pune and i had the privilege to go to miraj to see the building of sitars and tampura, here are some pictures: This was the accomplishment of a very old dream for me Miraj                                    
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Olivier- Thanks for the great series of pictures! They brought back some memories of India for me. When we think we need thousands of dollars for new hand tools, jigs, etc etc, we should remember these pictures! Cheers John |
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| Author: | sanaka [ Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Wow, Oliver, thanks! We sometimes use a tamboura in the little band I play in, and the one we have isn't very good, so I find myself often thinking about how they are put together. So this photo sequence is awesome for me. And of course, now we are all privy to the be-all, end-all, magical bracing system of the ancient mystics!:  WooHoo! Gotta love it  Seriously though, is that just keeping a drying gourd in shape, or does that really stay in?Peace, Sanaka |
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| Author: | OlivierMTL [ Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Hahaha No problem, In fact the gourds are disposed in water before been worked, so, it becomes softer, the neck socket is fitted and fixed with bamboo nails, the "bracings" are here to give the final shape of the body, it dried in the sun for a day, and the wood shingles are removed when everything is dry. |
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| Author: | Antonio [ Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
I have seen this t-shirt somewhere..... |
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| Author: | Mike Robicheau [ Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Amazing photos! Thanks so much. |
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| Author: | Burton LeGeyt [ Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Fascinating photos! Thank you. |
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| Author: | Eddie Lee [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: sitar project |
Great Photos!!!! I had to take another look. |
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