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Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=24900		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  michael wise [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
This week I finally got the bracing done, the sides bent and attached to the soundboard and to my suprise...it actually looks like a guitar bliss

I decided to post a few pics of my progress since so many people have helped me on here; from when I had trouble jointing my soundboard to bending my french walnut sides. This is my first guitar and actually my first major woodworking project since grade 10 woodworking laughing6-hehe

Image
Image
Author:  matthewrust [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Awesome!!! What a feeling, eh?!?

I really like the look of your side set. I've never seen French Walnut.

I know it is your first, so getting it together is the priority but I would suggest researching how to scallop braces and get them trimmed down a bit. Either way, it will make sound and probably sound better than most guitars you have held... But loosening up the top will really make it sing sweet.

Keep it up!!! You're doing great!!!
Author:  Wes McMillian [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Yep, and congratulations on a proud moment we all remember! [:Y:]

Now, I know you didn't ask for critique and I don't want to step out of bounds offering where it's not wanted, but I do suggest you take this opportunity to revisit a couple of things before closing the box. As was suggested, you can afford to lose a lot of mass on those braces yet. I see your tone bars don't butt up to the X, also. You may be able to get by with that, but I suggest tapering all your braces to nothing where they don't lock into the sides and eliminate the stress risers there. I, personally, would think about refitting the bridge plate as well.

Again, not to take away from a proud moment. She looks awesome and I know you're looking forward to that first chord already. Keep up the good work!
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Also, what is the plate thickness. Seems to be very thick.
Author:  Bailey [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Very cool. It's always exciting to see it taking shape. I also have not seen this wood before....so Can't wait to see the back.
Also remember......the inside of the guitar should look as clean as the outside. A little time cleaning up excess glue goes a long way in how a buyer analyzes workmanship. They DO LOOK inside! I would say you are on your way to completing and enjoying your first exciting build. There's nothing like the first one....Congrats.
Kent
Author:  Wes McMillian [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Well, once you're selling to the masses then, yes, the inside should be clean. Right now just concentrate on the mechanics of getting it together. And you're doing a great job, by the way! That walnut is going to be gorgeous when it's finished! The rest just comes with time.
Author:  michael wise [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
hey thanks for the input, I could use it, i am going by the the "bible" and Kinkead's book, how high should the X braces be and exactly where should I be removing material. The soundboard is down to a rough thickness but what should my finish thickness be at? I really want her to sing when im done but honestly if I can string her up and she DOESN'T burst into splinters, I will be equally as happy
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Michael-
Your guitar project looks good! Nice side wood and looks like a smooth bending job as well.
(I wouldn't worry too much about it flying apart when strung up- wood is surprisingly strong stuff.)
Are you planning on adding a 'popsicle' brace (low flat brace) of some kind between the neck block and the upper brace above the soundhole?

re: Bracing, etc- Sometimes pictures can distort the apparent size/thickness.
Can you give some measurements of the width and height of your braces?
Also, what is the top thickness now?

Cheers
John
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Am I seeing the picture wrong? Is your neck block not as tall as the sides at the neck? What is going on there?

Jim
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Jim Kirby wrote:
Am I seeing the picture wrong? Is your neck block not as tall as the sides at the neck? What is going on there?
Jim


Jim-
Looking at the figure in the wood, I think Michael just left the sides 'full width', rather than cutting to rough size/ tapering them before bending. There's some 'extra' side at the tail block as well.
That walnut looks like it will be fairly easy to plane down- good workout for the block plane.
John
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Jim Kirby wrote:
Am I seeing the picture wrong? Is your neck block not as tall as the sides at the neck? What is going on there?

Jim


That is the first thing that caught my eye. Looking at the dark banding in the sides, that is lot of tapering. If the block is not tall enough, consider building it up.

Mike
Author:  joekelly9692 [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
hey michael well done on your progress........the way you have glued your sides on is the way i do it.......i glue them on without a profile and after the top is on i use a spokeshave to plane a prifile to fit the back on.....takes me 10 mins to do but be careful the sides are fragile

joe
Author:  michael wise [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
ok, I took almost everyones advice and I thinned out my braces, I checked the plans and needless to say my x-braces were just a little on the high side so I thinned those out and also touched up on the others as well. The x- brace and bone braces are 8mm across, 15mm high and taper to nothing...or at least as close to nothing as I can get due to the confined space the sides provide. The finger braces are all 6mm across and peak at about 10mm and taper to close to nothing. here is a pic of my progress

Image

criticism and suggestions are more then welcome, i just hope im heading in the right direction
Author:  mateo4x4 [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
That is looking really good! I look forward to more updates as it progresses...sure it will be beautiful. [clap]

My thoughts on first time techniques and styles...(and this is not intended to start a battle of what is right/wrong...just some insight from a novice builder!) beehive laughing6-hehe

It is a toss up (and a highly contested question) as to what needs concentration first...visual fit and finish, or basics and construction techniques. The braces are a good example of both being right, as the act of making them the right shape and size will add to their looks and improve the sound/performance of the whole. I am personally partial to getting the basic construction stuff down, while keeping an eye on the looks of course (sometimes they go hand in hand!). In my world, a solid base is the start to a beautiful creation.

-Matthew
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Michael please take this as constructive not critical criticism.

What I don’t like most of all is the brace joints. In particularly the tone bars, finger braces and bridge plate to X brace. First of all the ends of the tone bars appear to have about an 1/8th inch (3.18 mm) tall square shoulder on the ends. This leaves a stress riser right at the place that brace glue failure tends to accrue the most. Plus these braces (IMO) should have been butted up against the X-brace for better energy transfer. This means that the X brace ends of the tone bars, bridge plate and finger braces need to be shaped to fit flush to the X brace. You braces look rounded over ant full thickness, you could have loss a large amount of mass off these braces but yet retain the strength by shaping to a triangular or parabolic shape. I can see son minor triangular shape to the X brace but that could have been taken all the way to near the bottom of the brace. This will come as you learn to tune the top prior to attachment. I also have a bit of an issue with the square cut out in the UTB the corners of this type notch out creates a stress riser in the corners that leaves open the possibility of a split in the brace starting in the corners of that notch out. Just like the square ends on the tone bars braces, avoid squares edges where you can. Taper the ends of braces all the way to the top if possible. Use rounded corners in notch outs if the notch is left open or not a glued up joint.

Next you sound hole bracing is massive. The grain orientation of the bridge block is running in exactly the wrong direction. When loaded under string ball tension your bridge plate will be susceptible to splitting with the grain because the grain is running at or very near the line of the loading. Your bridge plate should be riff sawn and with the grain orientation perpendicular to the centerline of the guitar.

In the first photo the top looked like it was near 5mm thick I am hoping it is closer to 3mm or less.

Don’t take this wrong because it is a learning experience and the first few times out the gate are supposed to be learning tools. Here is what I expect you will find from this one. It will be a bit short of responsive due to mass in the bracing, the height and width of the braces is good but needed so major shaping to reduce the mass with out reducing their cross sectional strength. Expect as the guitar ages that the bridge plate may start cracking at the pin hoes along the grain lines from the ball loading.

If you leave the end treatment of the braces that do not butt against the X brace as they are there will be a greater chance of the glue joint starting to separate at the square corner ends tan if they had been tapered to zero at the end of the brace. Or better yet butted flush to the X brace.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wow...it actually looks like a guitar
Michael-
Just for reference on brace size, here are a couple of frames from Alan Carruth's 'Plate Tuning' video, where he is working on a guitar with a similar bracing layout. (He will go on to shape the brace into more 'triangular' cross-sections later.)

My thanks to Alan!

And, a shot of one of mine- which is holding up fine in use- not to compete with Alan's, but just to show another example which apparently was 'strong enough'.

So there is quite a way to go (mostly below the 'X') before things start to fly apart in splinters.

Cheers
John
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