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| Kinkead book neck joint question http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=24713 |
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| Author: | MikeG [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Kinkead book neck joint question |
I've just started building the guitar in the Jonathan Kinkead book. The part that I am most concerned with is the dovetail neck joint. My question is would it be better to go with a bolt on neck instead of the dovetail joint? If the bolt on is the best choice how would I go about figuring the size ie. width, depth etc. Would going with a bolt on effect anything else? Thanks for the help. Mike |
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| Author: | MRS [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
What are your concerns of the dovetail? If your concerned that the dovetail is inferior in strength to the bolt on? Don't be. Is it more difficult then doing a bolt on? Not really. Getting the bolt on specs down right can also be difficult to a beginner. The Kinkead book is a nice book. I don't believe there is info in there on bolt ons. A good book would be Cumpianos guitarmaking tradition and technology. He goes over bolt on necks in his book. I'm not sure if there is a more modern book with bolt on neck techniques....Mike |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
Mike- There are a lot of possibilities. Some builders (Sergei deJonge) use a dovetail secured with bolts. The most common bolt-on style uses a mortise and tenon- you can find info here at the OLF if you look through the archives. The MIMF also has a lot of stuff on necks (you may have to register -free- to view the archive) http://www.mimf.com/library/catalog_necks.htm#necks A simple mortise-less bolt-on neck is described by Mottola here: http://liutaiomottola.com/construction/Bolton.htm Bolt-on necks make resets and adjustments a lot easier. Cheers John |
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| Author: | MikeG [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
My concern with the dovetail joint is that it looks like you have one shot a getting it correct. If you are off it may turn out crooked or the neck may not be tight against the body on both sides. It looks like the bolt on mortise and tenon could be adjusted more easily to correct any mismatch where it meets the body. I'm just not sure if I would be making a bigger mistake by switching to the bolt on over the dovetail. Mike |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
Mike- You can 'adjust' the fit of a dovetail quite a bit by paring, sanding,and shimming (with paper or veneer). I spent (quite) a few hours doing this when I took a building course a few years ago. Backing up the dry dovetail with bolts (deJonge) adds a lot of security, especially if you have ended up with an assortment of shims in the joint. One key is to get the neck angle correctly adjusted before you cut the dovetail, assuming your jig indexes from the face of the heel. So you can definitely do the dovetail if you are patient and careful. I've built a few mortise-type bolt-on as well, and I would say that the bolt-on is easier to fit, but not 'brainless' by any means. If your neck heel is 'hefty' enough to accept the threaded inserts, a mortise-less joint (as per the Mottola link in my previous post, but I think you could probably omit the fingerboard support and just lightly glue the fingerboard to the top, as with a mortise-type connection) would be the easiest. This is essentially the bolt-on version of the David Russell Young epoxied butt joint. Cheers John |
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| Author: | woody b [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
MikeG wrote: My concern with the dovetail joint is that it looks like you have one shot a getting it correct. If you are off it may turn out crooked or the neck may not be tight against the body on both sides. It looks like the bolt on mortise and tenon could be adjusted more easily to correct any mismatch where it meets the body. I'm just not sure if I would be making a bigger mistake by switching to the bolt on over the dovetail. Mike Dovetails aren't that complicated. I built my first 2 dovetails with a saw, like I think Kinkead does in the book. I've got a jig I use with my router now, and it usually takes me less than an hour to set the neck. John Hall (Bluescreek) made some excellent videos for setting dovetail necks. I use chisels instead of sanding but the concept is the same. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=24641 |
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| Author: | Mark A Thorpe [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
I built my first one using the Kinkead book, excellent book by the way, I used a dovetail saw and chisels to make my first dovetail. I wasn't perfect with my first, I had to shim it a few times before I got it right. That was five years ago and the guitar is holding up quite well. Just take your time you'll be fine. |
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| Author: | ChristopherOtto [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
About this book -- it looks like it's being 'remaindered' now. My local Half Price Books has about 6 on the shelf at half the cover price, so presumably their other branches and other bargain booksellers both online and 'brick&mortar' have this book marked down as well. Might be a good time to buy one if it's on your list... or maybe to kick yourself for paying full price for it a couple weeks ago. |
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| Author: | MikeG [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
Thanks for the help, I'm going to go ahead and do the dovetail. I didn't realize that if you make an error with one that it is still adjustable. Mike |
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| Author: | jaguarguy [ Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
ChristopherOtto wrote: About this book -- it looks like it's being 'remaindered' now. My local Half Price Books has about 6 on the shelf at half the cover price, so presumably their other branches and other bargain booksellers both online and 'brick&mortar' have this book marked down as well. Might be a good time to buy one if it's on your list... or maybe to kick yourself for paying full price for it a couple weeks ago. Thanks for pointing out the price break information - I went online and bought it for $17 including shipping. Mike |
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| Author: | Corky Long [ Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
Great book - I built my first couple of guitars using the Kinkead book, and found it to be a great resource for the first couple. For my own building, I have concluded that I'm using the bolted mortise and tenon neck going forward. I've concluded that the geometry of the dovetail is just too time consuming for me. I respect those who've mastered it, but for me, it's just too easy to get it just a bit out of line, requiring shims, etc. I've actually resorted to KD bolts on one dovetail that wasn't quite right, and I like how they work. Have fun! |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kinkead book neck joint question |
It matters not what type of neck joint you use fine tuning of the joint is required. It is not hard to fit any of the joint options. It is only a matter of understanding how the joint works and how to make the adjustments. All three major neck joints are strong. All three require pitch, yaw and centerline adjustment. M&T and Butt joints do provide simpler access the surfaces that need adjusting. And a bolt-on (either M&T or butt joint) makes removal for neck resets later in the life of the instrument less risky to the joint and body components of the instrument. |
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