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Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
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Author:  Dan Roach [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
For those of you who are using extra wide saddles (3/16" or 1/4"), what effect if any does this have on using UST pickups since most of the transducers are 3/32" or 1/8"? I was curious if there is a noticeable effect on the tone either plugged in or played acoustically since a good portion of the bottom of the saddle would not be in contact with anything. Tips, tricks, words of caution are welcome..... Eat Drink
Author:  Dennis Leahy [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
When I asked this question of B-Band tech folks, the answer I got was to create a tiny dado channel in the bottom center of the wide saddle. Fit it so that the UST pickup, when placed in the groove, re-creates the original (flat bottom) shape of the saddle.

I wasn't thrilled with that answer, but I'm just reporting what I was told.

I suppose that a single small droplet of CA glue could hold the pickup in place in the channel while you do the install of the saddle, and if a new saddle ever needed to be made, perhaps acetone could get the pickup back off the saddle without damaging it.

Let us know what you do, how you do it, and how well it works, please.

Dennis
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
Dan already knows my opinion to this butt I will express it any way. First fro a transducer to work at its best you need full saddle pressure on the transducer. Cutting a secondary channel equal in depth to the transducer in my opinion will not work because the saddle will not be exerting full either on the transducer or the outer bottom surface of the slot. There is no way you could be precise enough to get the slot exactly right. Either the saddle rests on the transducer or on the bottom surface of the slot. If it rest on the transducer then the transducer works well but it would seem to me that the natural acoustics of the guitar would suffer to some minor degree. I feel this is likely true any time there is a transducer under the saddle but would seem more so if the saddle and slot is wider than the transducer.

Then if you just tack the transducer in place with a drop of CA on the centerline of the slot then the 3/16 or 1/4” saddle is not fully seated. If you don’t tack the transducer in place can the transducer end up moving? Can this lead to an element short?
Author:  Dan Roach [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
Thanks Michael and Dennis. I also sent Rick Turner a PM and this is his response.

"It does make things a bit more problematic, to be sure, because of needing to get even pressure on the pickup. Yes, you can shim...slightly...but if the shim lifts the saddle off the pickup, you'll be in trouble. Best to do the tilt-back saddle routine, and then lay a strip of thin double stick tape on the underside of the pickup, and lay the pickup in along the front wall of the saddle slot to get maximum pressure."

I'll let you know if I find out more information.
Author:  dberkowitz [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
Having done .200" saddles for many years on my baritones, I've done a bunch of pickup installs. The recommendation from Fishman is also to rout a channel in the saddle slot for the pickup, but say .040" back from the leading edge of the saddle, and half the thickness of the pickup. I've done this for Fishman, K&K, and d-Tar pickups with great results. You need the slot on the leading edge of the saddle slot so that the pressure is directed over the pickup. Putting the pickup in the center won't do this the same way because the natural tendency is for pressure to be focused on the leading edge of the saddle slot. You don't need (or want) to secure the pickup with CA (what if you didn't get the slot flat or if there's a fur of wood that peeled off the side of the channel under your pickup and you didn't notice?) If you drill your cable hole correctly, and routed your slot right, it will sit in the slot just fine, and the saddle will hold it in place. Occasionally the extra thickness around the cable as it enters a pickup like a Fishman Matrix or similar may make the pickup want to poke up, just relieve the hole a little so its still a slip fit, but doesn't interfere with the pickup laying flat in the new channel.

Properly installed, you're not going to notice any great difference in sound. Some, sure, but that is the sacrifice of having a pickup. Most people, even good players, won't notice. One of my clients who had a Traugot brought in McIntyre SBT for installation. These are very wide and overhung the bridgeplate. McIntyre recommended putting in a shim in front of the bridge plate (and it was just about 3/16 x 2 1/2 x .100" in size) and put it in with double stick tape to allow the leading edge of the pickup to make contact. My client claimed to hear the difference, and so we took out the shim but kept the pickup. Some people are just going to hear stuff (in many cases it may be in their head).

UST's are the right answer to high SPL amplification situations where an SBT would feedback like mad. You don't see a Dave Matthews or CSN playing with SBT's because their stage levels prohibit their use.
Author:  woody b [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
David Enke from Pick up the World will make you a UST to fit whatever size slot you use. I'm not sure posting a link here is appropriate. PM me if you need contact information. I'll post a link if the management of the OLF says it's OK.
Author:  KMartin [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
I've done several by routing a smaller slot in the center of the saddle slot, slightly shallower than the pickup thickness, and have had good results. No adhesive used -- the wire exits the bottom of the slot, holding the pickup in approximate position, and you can guide it into final position when you drop the saddle in place.

I think David's suggestion that the slot should be toward the front of the saddle slot is a good one.
Author:  Dan Roach [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
dberkowitz wrote:
You need the slot on the leading edge of the saddle slot so that the pressure is directed over the pickup.


KMartin wrote:
I've done several by routing a smaller slot in the center of the saddle slot, slightly shallower than the pickup thickness, and have had good results. No adhesive used -- the wire exits the bottom of the slot, holding the pickup in approximate position, and you can guide it into final position when you drop the saddle in place.

I think David's suggestion that the slot should be toward the front of the saddle slot is a good one.


David and Kent, thank you for your responses and information [:Y:] So how do you go about routing the slot in the bottom of the saddle and what type bit have you found works the best?

Many Thanks!
Author:  Jeffrey L. Suits [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
DanR wrote:
For those of you who are using extra wide saddles (3/16" or 1/4"), what effect if any does this have on using UST pickups since most of the transducers are 3/32" or 1/8"? I was curious if there is a noticeable effect on the tone either plugged in or played acoustically since a good portion of the bottom of the saddle would not be in contact with anything. Tips, tricks, words of caution are welcome..... Eat Drink


I wonder about milling a very precise slot in the saddle bottom. I use my drill press and an X-Y vise for light work, though I have a mini-mill, too; a 1/8" endmill in the drill press cuts ever so silghtly oversize, but a daed-on press fit, in the mill.

This is a way to cove a saddle for coax piezos, too, with a roundnose endmill.

So, I'm thinking a press fit in the saddle, with the slightest amount of transducer proud of the saddle...
Author:  KMartin [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
I use a spiral end mill in my Dremel w/ router base. This setup requires a slow feed rate and light cuts to avoid the bit chattering and pulling sideways. I believe a laminate trimmer would be a better way to go, I just haven't adapted my jigs for that yet.
Author:  dberkowitz [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Extra Wide Saddles and UST Pickups
You want to use an 1/8" endmill (or the appropriately sized ball endmill for the coax style pickups). You want to rout it in situ, not before. No matter how carefully your glue your bridge, you can always get some distortion. Routing it after its glued down is the way to go, just be careful to line things up and have stops in place to keep you from routing into the ends of the slot. Use a laminate trimmer. Dremels have too much runout, and Foredom's don't have enough RPM -- They're better than a Dremel, but I prefer the laminate trimmer. I wish Stew Mac would have them adapt their geared up handset for use with StewMac's fixtures.
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