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| Mini-table saw for fret slots? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=24227 |
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| Author: | David Malicky [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
Does anyone use one of the mini-table saws for fret slots? We have a table saw, but need to keep the standard blade in it for other uses, and don't have room for another regular one. Our fretboards/necks (1 piece) are cherry or walnut, so not too hard. Some I've found... http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=93211 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0017TO806/ref ... O806939322 http://www.micromark.com/MICROLUX-MINIA ... ,6936.html Some potential blades (0.023-0.025) on micromark and http://www.newmantools.com/thurston/pg_3.htm#slo http://www.martindaleco.com/HTML/MetalW ... SS_HSS.htm http://www.progresstool.com/pd_jewelers ... 23_thk.cfm Would anyone have any experience with this approach, or something similar? David |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
Harbor freight would not be my 4th choice. I use the blade from Stew mac and my radial arm saw. The larger saws have the stability. The blades you are looking for are metal blades and not designed for a table saw |
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| Author: | Alan [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
First, don't get the Harbor Freight one for any reason. I got one thinking that I would use it to cut a bevel on back reinforcement strips.....it won't even cut them. I found a Dremel table saw that works pretty well for small stuff. I cut my fret slots on a full sized table saw with a sled and StewMac blade and template. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
I know nothing of table saws but from what I've read (on model makers forums) the Harbor Freight one is junk. Proxxon have a much better reputation. There is also a very precise mini table saw made by some chap in the US, can't recall his name but it obviously isn't going to be cheap. |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
Putting money into any one of those saws would be throwing it away. In fact you might as well just send it to me and I promise to spend it wisely.  I have passed by countless old Beavers or the likes that people are almost willing to pay you to take them away. Perfect for dedicated fret slotting. Shane at High Mountain has good blades also.Good Luck, Danny |
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| Author: | David Malicky [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
Thanks for the quick replies, all! On saws, thanks for the tips on the HF. Also, I noticed the Proxxon/Microlux has a 2:1 belt drive for more torque. Another option might be a hand-held circular saw mounted upside down (kinda like a router/table), though the universal motor would be pretty loud. Or of course I can build my own, but that's more time. Unfortunately we just don't have room for another full size saw, and I need something light weight so we can store it easily. Our table saw is in high demand, and I'd rather not tie it up with frequent blade changes and fretting. This is for a class project, and students are cutting frets now and then over a 6 week period, so I can't dedicate a machine to do it all at once. In the past we sawed by hand, and can certainly do that again, but it's slow and quality can be an issue. On blades, what are the distinctions between those screw-slotting blades and the StewMac or other fret blades? I know typical cross-cut wood blades have a slight rake angle -- would the 0 degree rake of the screw-slotting blade be a problem for this application? Does the StewMac blade also have ATB? I see the StewMac is thicker in the middle, though 2.25" dia may be small enough to not need a stabilizer. Thanks again, David |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
You can use a mini table saw for all kinds of other stuff, and if you look at it that way then it's worth dishing out for a good one. There are some neat setups around for cutting fret slots using all kinds of different saws mounted different ways; I think Sheldon Dingwall had one shown here somewhere using a radial arm or somesuch? It'd be cake to make a setup with a sliding mitre saw and an indexing fixture. If you relegate fretting to once or two days a week, at the end of the day, then you shouldn't be losing too much time due to blade changes. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
The biggest issue with those small saws is arbour slop. I always walk be them and 'shake' the blade. I have yet to find one that is tight. On the blades, most of us that sell them have them specially made (I do for sure) to tolerances that exceed those of jewelery saw blades and probably WAY exceed those made for slotting screws. My blades are .024 thick, plus or minus .0005. Jewelery blades are plus or minus .001. I don't know the tolerance on screw slotting blades but common sense tells me that they are not as tight of a tolerance as even jewelery blades. Just so that you know when I have my blades made specifications for the diametre and for the arbour size are also very closely monitored to tight tolerance. I state all of this because it is important to know that when you by a dedicated fret slotting blade, that is what you are getting, not something dressed up to be a fret slotting blade. So, I will keep my Unisaw for any high precision work that is required, and I would do that even if it meant do that work after hours! Shane |
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| Author: | MRS [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
For what these little saws cost with the exception of the piece of junk harbor freight saw you could by this saw below at the home depot and at least be able to use it for something other then miniature work. And i would also go with the stew mac or LMI blade. They are made for fretting the others are not. http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5/R-100058430/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 |
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| Author: | PaulB [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
I bought an Australian version of one of those saws, a blade from Shane, some stabilizers from Lee Valley, and the thing works pretty good as a dedicated fret slotting station. My only gripe is that the table top is pretty much garbage and I need to make a new one out of mdf or similar, so that I can more accurately index the jig to the blade, or at least be more confident of the things accuracy. |
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| Author: | Markus Schmid [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
I have that Proxxon. I find it OK for approximately straight cuts in up to max. 10mm thick spruce, 5mm plywood or 3mm thin beech. I never used it for lutherie except for cutting 10x10mm spruce bars to length for stickering tonewood, where it did a great job (at it's limits). That was before I had a bandsaw. I doubt it would be a good idea to do the fret slots on ebony or rosewood fretboards with the small Proxxon tablesaw. It's too weak to do a reasonably quick job. |
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| Author: | Imbler [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
Take a look at the Byrnes miniature table saw. I bought one to help with making bridges among other things. Expensive, but good power, and more precision than I'm capable of using. The fence has a micrometer for setting it! Mike |
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| Author: | Mike Kroening [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
I use one of the old, late 70s, early 80's craftsman 8" direct drive tabletop saws. It's just the right size. I 've seen them on the Evil bay for about 25 bucks. MK |
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| Author: | MRS [ Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
These miniature saws are made for model building. We are not building models! |
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| Author: | tommygoat [ Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
I am a repair guy. I build wacky stuff once in while. I have a nice Micro table saw. It works well for many small jobs. However, I would Not use it for a highly accurate job like slotting a fretboard. |
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| Author: | David Malicky [ Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
Thanks for the replies, all! Yes, the Byrnes is beautiful, but our budget can't cover that this year. I looked into the cheap 10" and the older 8" saws, but they are too heavy and/or big for us, unfortunately (and more than we need for our fret slots in cherry). Markus, thanks very much for the info on your Proxxon. I see the standard blade for that is 0.015" -- what do you think of slotting cherry with an 0.023" blade? Also, how much arbor slop is there? Another option is to build my own... doesn't look too hard, given the focused use. David |
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| Author: | PaulB [ Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
Yes, you could build your own. My take on this is that the arbor for one of these off the shelf mini table saws is right on the money in terms of size, the motor speed is also right on. So why would you try to source a motor with all the requirements from a motor rewinder, when you could just buy one of these things and rip out the motor and use that? So the saw is not as accurate as you'd like? Well, we might not be building models, but we do build guitars, ripping the guts out of something and making it do what we want it to do is half the fun of building (jigs) guitars. This is what I'm doing with mine, it cost all of $50, I'd bet you couldn't find the right motor (arbor size, speed etc) for less than that. Consider these things a starting point, improve on it if you can. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
Of course the other alternative is to use a Hand saw. Cheap and doesn't take up much space. For setting the spacing I use a digital Caliper and a dedicated set square. It's slow because of the need to continually re-set the Caliper. Dedicated spacers would be much quicker but that involves the work of making accurate spacers - not too bad for 1 or 2 scale lengths though. The main problem with the Hand saw method is that some of the commercial saw offerings don't seem that good. .My own attempt at sharpening a cheap Back Saw produced far superior results and I'm no expert at saw sharpening. It does have a thin blade which meant that I could give it more set, no doubt the reason why it does not bind and why the cut is clean. It's a western Back saw that cuts on the push stroke. |
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| Author: | Markus Schmid [ Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
david82282 wrote: Markus, thanks very much for the info on your Proxxon. I see the standard blade for that is 0.015" -- what do you think of slotting cherry with an 0.023" blade? Also, how much arbor slop is there? I'm sorry for replying late, I missed to subscribe to the thread  Of course, a 0.023" blade will slow down things even more. Arbor slop is just fine, but that's not the point. I think that it simply would be a pain slotting a fretboard with the small Proxxon, it's way underpowered for this task, even when "only" cutting cherry. It's not only slow, but you probably would overheat the motor, it's not designed to run under full load for a long time (let's say not much more than 10 minutes). Michael.N. wrote: Of course the other alternative is to use a Hand saw. Cheap and doesn't take up much space. [...] I agree. I'd say if you're on a budget that's the way to go. Get a nice handsaw (the best and sharpest you can find on the market - it still will be cheaper than a "tablesaw toy"). Doing the cuts with the small Proxxon would take you more time than cutting the fret slots by hand (seriously, no kidding). |
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| Author: | tommygoat [ Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
FWIW - I have the Micro-Mark table saw, and I like it very much. I do a lot of repair, and it works well for many jobs. I have never slotted a fingerboard with it. I was in Brian Burns' shop and he has a ShopSmith set-up with a Stew Mac blade with a sled that he seems to have dedicated to that task. Those units are cheap now on Craig's List. |
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| Author: | David Malicky [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
Thanks, Markus and Tommy, for the info on that saw. Sounds like the remaining options for us (given my constraints) are hand sawing like we do now, or build my own. And since I like to build and am pretty tired of hand sawing, that's next! |
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| Author: | Wade Sylvester [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
David if you don't mind a bit of a hi-jack on this thread; Let's say you are setting up a dedicated fretting table saw, Is there a specific speed (RPM) the blade should be spinning to get it to cut cleanly? My blade seems to get gucked up after a fret board or two. Thanks, |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mini-table saw for fret slots? |
It's been said before, but counter-intuitively, the more precision is required in the work, the heavier the equipment should be. To slot frets on a table-saw you want no play in the arbor, a blade absolutely parallel to the mitre slot and a heavy cast-iron table and stand to dampen vibrations. I would think a direct-drive table-saw vibrates too much, a belt-drive is a must. I slot my FBs on a '50s Delta Homecraft table-saw, all steel and cast-iron, heavy steel base as well. Motor spins at 3750rpm, I use one of Shane's blades and it works like a charm. I must have slotted over 30 FBs with that blade and it's still sharp. I clean it regularly with lacquer thinner. |
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