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| The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=24200 |
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| Author: | FrankC [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
Hi Guys. I have been away for years but I am back. Anyway, as far as books on the subject go, is Ervin Somogyis "The Responsive Guitar" a "must have" on the subject? I only have the Cumpiano guitarmaking book and looking to add another on the subject but $140 is steep if it doesnt pass the OLF approval stamp 
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
Great question!! I have been wondering myself what the list members who purchased Erv's books have to report. The cost to get these books to Canada is a little high for my retiree budget so I have held off purchasing until I heard great reports. If these are actually the great books they are reputed to be I probably will spend the cash. So what do you all think? Fred |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
As stated by Somogyi and others, and it bears repeating, is that it's not a how-to. But it is the best $140 I've spent on my education on guitar building. No formulas, but gives tools on how you might conduct your own thinking processes. That is, not what to think, but helps you figure out just what it is that you DO think in your own building. I don't think they would have done me much good for my first build, however, not having a frame of reference or context to fit it all into. The Cumpiano and Kinkead books were good for that. I'd buy them again, if I had it to do over. Pat |
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| Author: | FrankC [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
Pat Foster wrote: As stated by Somogyi and others, and it bears repeating, is that it's not a how-to. But it is the best $140 I've spent on my education on guitar building. No formulas, but gives tools on how you might conduct your own thinking processes. That is, not what to think, but helps you figure out just what it is that you DO think in your own building. I don't think they would have done me much good for my first build, however, not having a frame of reference or context to fit it all into. The Cumpiano and Kinkead books were good for that. I'd buy them again, if I had it to do over. Pat Thanks Pat. I should have mentioned that i wasnt looking for another how to book (I think Ervins other book is a how to but could be wrong). I have Cumpianos book for my "how to" questions but your advice and opinion may have sold me! That sounds exactly like the book I am looking for. Appreciate the response! |
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| Author: | John Hale [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
As a beginner I thinks it can be a little confusing Ervin rambles around the subject slowly spiralling in to the heart of the matter, I wouldn't be without the books there's lots in there, but I feel as a beginner they should be read the making first then the Responsive guitar, I wouldn't be without them, but I also feel they're priced just on the edge of affordability I feel you probably need 10-15 instruments under your belt to fully appreciate them, and they should be college textbook material to educate the next generation of "serious" luthiers rather than hobbiests |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
I agree.. I feel like this book stands alone in what it is. I think the main giant difference is that you have a Master Luthier sharing his In-Depth personal Mental Model for how the Guitar works... Whether or not you agree or totally believe his mental model... or you feel it is useful or not to you... He goes into great depth about how be believes our little Guitar works or useful analogies that are helpful to get your brain wrapped around some ideas..... Now... In science, there is a saying: "All Models are Wrong, Some Models are Useful!" and being able to look at someone else's Mental Model in depth is useful. The other books I have seen/own share a Method of construction... and just barely start to scratch the surface of the Mental Model -- they really don't go any deeper than "Well, I like to try to build it close to the edge of failure..... so you should start with a 1/8" thick top and 3/4" x 5/16" bracing" or "Build a whole bunch and eventually you will kinda get the hang of it" or "Tune each piece to this 1 frequency and it will come out sounding good" .... These sorts of approaches aren't really the same as a mental model of how things work.... Now, the 2nd book... Making it.. I think it has *Tons* of good info in it, but it isn't nearly Linear enough and it isn't enough of a "Recipe book" to just build a Guitar out of. As a comparison -- I think Cumpiano's Engineering background comes through in his book... If you follow his Procedures and his Internet site notes.... You will successfully build a playable Guitar..... where Somogyi's English and Psychology background comes through in his book... Wanting you to Question and Analyze and Think in depth... that a Recipe isn't really a good thing.... Why do I do what I do? Why shouldn't I try something totally different? How many paths will lead to a Good Guitar (Like his comments that you could build a "Flat" flat top, a compound domed top, a radiused top, or a Cylindrical top... and all would make fine guitars.) Then add specific details about 10,000 different Jigs and Fixtures and Short cut methods he uses in his shop to do this and that..... Bottom line: Worth it to me, but they won't be worth it to everybody! If you want a simple explanation of where to put the tone bars and what a Forward or Rearward shifted X are for or how to create a certain tone balance or a Linear recipe for how to build a certain thing.... or if someone trying to teach you by using the Aristotelian (Asking endless questions...) method aggravates you..... These are not the books for you. John |
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| Author: | MRS [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
At a $140 a copy I'll wait to it comes out as an audio book. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
I think if you are serious about building high end steel string guitars this book stands alone. Just like his class, it doesn't specifically answer the question "How do I build a great guitar", but it does give you a compass and a flashlight and a pretty good idea of where you want to go, but you have to do the walking. As previously mentioned it is really a model of how to THINK about the guitar and what impact construction choices make on that model. How will a wider, or narrower X splay imact the voice of the instrument? How will a looser perimeter imact the voice? Etc. One of the excercises we did in the class was to get an assignment (i.e. build a 10 string instrument in a small dread body that has great mids / trebles with a present but not overpowering bass). And once you have a clear picture of his model you can have a rational process to begin thinking about the design. I think this is the real value in what Ervin is teaching. You can flex and use his model to suit your own goals. It takes work though, I am a few years off of the training (and the books echo much of the core content in the class) and I am still experimenting. I am sure though that without his help and model I would have wandered aimlessly for a very long time. Ervin's way isn't the only way to look at the guitar, I think there are several models for building great guitars (and nearly an infinite way to build bad ones). I think whatever method you choose you embrace it fully and really try to make it work for you. I know the books are expensive, but if you really study them (*I* think) you will shave decades off trial and error, and to me that is worth far more than the cost of a nice set of koa. |
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| Author: | Corky Long [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
I'm a novice - having completed 5 guitars, and I've got a long way to go before I'll feel as if I've "got it" in terms of my own method for building the style and quality of steel string guitars that I want to build. I'm not sorry I took the plunge on these books. I've read Cumpiano, and have used Kinkead's book on my first couple of builds (still think this is the one that I'd recommend for the first time builder), but Ervin's books offer insight into some very interesting theories of how and why to build in certain ways. Expensive? Maybe - but compared to what? It takes me 4 months to build a guitar, given that I'm doing it on nights and weekends, when I'm not taking the kids to hockey, etc. If I can make the next guitar 25% better than the last, and then, again, due to what I've learned through Ervin's books, it's a great investment. Not "paint by numbers" guitar building, but in my opinion, far more useful. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
I would buy the books. I like the approach. There are a lot of books already present that are full of methods, but few available that really go beyond those basics. Expensive? Compared to many books, yes. Expensive if your wife give you that "look" when you tell her you are about to spend that much on books for yourself? YES! Expensive for the content? Probably not. I think that you are getting good value if you are positioned to take advantage of the knowledge and experience presented. Right now, I'm in the position where my wife gives me that "look" whenever I plan on buying anything related to guitar building, so these books are definitely too expensive for me. That, and they are about steel string guitars not nylon string. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
The books are great, whether you are building steel strings or classicals. "The Responsive Guitar" is really strong in leading one through the function of the instrument. It applies to most types of guitars. His comparisons are excellent, and he really makes you think about your approach to the build, even though it is indirect. I kept finding myself saying, "That's what I think!" Not that I know that much, but in the back of my mind I had over the last 25 years of reading numerous books on classical guitar construction, developed a bit of feel for what I thought might be going on inside the instrument. One thing that I felt is that Ervin is building steel string guitars with the mindset of a classical builder, but using the techniques of a steel string builder. lightness and stiffness are critical, and every piece of wood is tested for those details. I don't know if it would do a first guitar person a lot of good, but it would develop the "build light" bud in the mind, which is, probably, from everything I have read here, the biggest problem with first builds. The book is well written, but does take a bit of page turning to get the most out of it. I really think it is more of a book to study, than a book to read. I'll be re-visiting it often. |
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| Author: | David R White [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Responsive Guitar book...Opinions? |
The book has been well described in this thread. I think it is a great source of insight and well worth the purchase. If you're the type of person that intends to learn the subtleties of building fine instruments it will certain speed up that process. |
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