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Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=24190		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  segovia [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
Hi

Are there any pro's and con's regarding what is the best method/tool for cutting a scarf joint ?

John
Author:  Michael.N. [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
Makes absolutely no difference if you are going to use a plane to exact the joint afterwards. Maybe with a table saw and the correct blade you can dispense with the plane but I've zero experience with table saws.
I use a real cheap £4 hardpoint. Goes through it in about 8 seconds.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
I dont even bother to clean up the face on the neck piece until after I glue them up. I cut on the BS, then plane the angle clean and square on the headstock piece, and glue up using the bench top, a clamp holding the neck piece on edge and a bench dog to prevent slippage, no jig required.
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
You can do a very clean joint with a table saw , but it had to be done with the parts clamped to the saw , and you lower the blade , set the cut , then raise the saw. If you have too small a saw then you need to do as Todd show. You can also make a jig with a router.
Author:  Mike Lindstrom [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
When I had access to a good bandsaw (ie not mine) I've done that. It's quick and easy to clean up as Todd shows with a plane. At home, my handsaw skills turned out to be inadequate, I built a sled to do it on the table saw. Width of the neck plus width of the sled meant it had to be two sided to get the job done with my saw. Used a couple of those tablesaw fence clamps from Rockler or Woodcraft to hold the blank to the sled. Works pretty well. Still have to hand plane.
Author:  segovia [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
Thanks, I read somewhere that dressing the clamped faces on a belt sander is as good as planing the faces - any thoughts on this ?

John
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
Any particular reason for not using a hand plane to finish the faces? It unquestionably gives the best surface quality, while being quiet and cheap. You can use almost any imaginable plane type for it.
I guess same question regarding cutting the blank, why not using a good handsaw?
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
bluescreek wrote:
You can do a very clean joint with a table saw , but it had to be done with the parts clamped to the saw , and you lower the blade , set the cut , then raise the saw.


John, can you please elaborate on what the advantages are of doing it this way, rather than pushing it through the blade on a sled? Thank you -
Author:  Mark Groza [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
When i did scarf joints, i used a miter box and hand saw, then plane to finish.I now laminate all my necks, so i don't have to scarf anymore.I always thought they were a pain to glue up as well.
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
I haven't done a scarf joint in years, but when I did them, I used a 12" disc sander to prep the surfaces for gluing after rough cutting the scarfs on a table saw. I used 120 grit sandpaper and glued with either LMI white or epoxy. Both worked equally well.

Here's a pic of one from a few years back.

Attachment:
dmnut12.jpg
Author:  Tom West [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
John : you may have noticed from the pictures that no one has the heel block glued on yet,and no doubt the necks are not cut to length. The reason for this is that in cuting the scarf and cleaning it up to glue you can lost distance on the neck plank quickly because of the 15 or so degrees. Leave a bit extra material,think it throught and take your time.Good luck.
Tom.
Author:  Rene [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
I cut my 15 degree scarf joint on a 14" bandsaw running it thru on a sled. I find it won't rock as much this way and provides an adequate straight and square cut as long as the blade is sharp. I tried and failed miserably even after buying several expensive handsaws to do it the Cumpiano way as described in his book. When I saw how Kathy Matsushita does it on a table saw I tried it on my bandsaw instead as I don't have a TS and I'm glad I did.
Rene
Author:  David Malicky [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
We do all our student guitars just with a table saw and a simple adapter. The fit is nearly perfect (plenty good for us) if the blade is aligned well and the feed is slow and smooth. CA glue, no failures since we started 4 years ago.
Agreed as above that a belt sander almost always makes it worse.

Image
Author:  GregG [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
I haven't done a scarf joint in a LONG time, but when I did I used a sled on my bandsaw with the proper blade and got a nearly perfect joint every time....very little clean-up needed.
Author:  ChristopherOtto [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
Mark Groza wrote:
When i did scarf joints, i used a miter box and hand saw, then plane to finish...


I'm a hand tool luddite who owns a miter box, doesn't have a table saw, and my $5.00 Walker-Turner bandsaw hasn't been rehabilitated yet, so this method might work for me on my first build. But is it even possible to do this without wasting wood, slicing a long waste wedge off the ends of two separate pieces?

If not I might just go with my original plan of using a backsaw, freehand. My wild guess is I could make the cut quicker than most people could using their table saws, though I'll admit I may have to take a few more swipes with a hand plane. But then again I think hand-planing is kinda fun.

Rene wrote:
...even after buying several expensive handsaws ...

In my experience, once you've learned sharpening - and the learning curve isn't very steep - using handsaws is very quick and easy. Cheap, too, if you buy your tools at estate & garage sales...
Author:  Todd Rose [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
david82282 wrote:
We do all our student guitars just with a table saw and a simple adapter. The fit is nearly perfect (plenty good for us) if the blade is aligned well and the feed is slow and smooth. CA glue, no failures since we started 4 years ago.
Agreed as above that a belt sander almost always makes it worse.

Image


I love it!
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
I prefer the clamp method as the work is held stable. Even with a clamped sled ,you will have some slight movement. I learned this trick when doing miter cuts from an old cabinet maker. With the proper blade you are ready to glue after the cut. When you clamp the work it is less likely to move. I think we all have our favorite techniques. Not saying one is better than the other , but accuracy counts on this joint.
A simple jig as Todd shows is also good. The joints integrity relies on the mating of the joints face. This is a good joint when done right.
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
I make the cut on the bandsaw free hand. I draw a 15 degree angle and just cut to the line. I then do the clean up with the hand plan as shown above. The free hand cut is pretty awful so there is no temptation to try to clue it up without planing it. The neck is over 1" thick and only 2-3/4" tall so it isn't too tippy. Also there is lots of neck wood to hold on to so you can keep your hands far away from the blade.
Author:  John A [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
Todd Rose wrote:
I love it!



You know when I saw that picture I thought it was brilliant !! excellent idea ! I still do think it is good, BUT

I tried it this morning - and my cut came out radial - meaning it is following the blade... so my joint cuts were not perfecly up and down, but were more of a partial circle cut in the wood. I figure out this is because the table saw blade hits the bottom of the neck stock first, then as you push in, the circlar movement of the blade is expanded to the top of the neck stock. When the blade cuts all the way through, the headstock has an arcing cut in it... and the neck as well. That is a lot more to plane out than if I used a backsaw.
For those using the table saw, how do you avoid the circular cut ? It seems like the idea of putting the stock in a jig and lifting the running blade into the wood to cut may be a better idea.

thanks !
john
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
Probably a cut for a really stiff and sharp blade.
Author:  LPMc [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
Rough cut on bandsaw, followed by clean-up cut with blank clamped to a holding fixture on chop saw.

Perfect about 8 out of 10 times.

Tidy-up with Japanese hand plane, if necessary.
Author:  David Malicky [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
bluescreek wrote:
I prefer the clamp method as the work is held stable. Even with a clamped sled ,you will have some slight movement. I learned this trick when doing miter cuts from an old cabinet maker. With the proper blade you are ready to glue after the cut. When you clamp the work it is less likely to move. I think we all have our favorite techniques. Not saying one is better than the other , but accuracy counts on this joint.
A simple jig as Todd shows is also good. The joints integrity relies on the mating of the joints face. This is a good joint when done right.


Yes, looking back on this thread, it sounds like John's method is more accurate, and I would trust his experience more than mine. I didn't know a thing about building guitars until 4 years ago. Our method is good for our purpose since it's quick, but it can leave a ~1/32" gap at one of the corners -- we just clamp the gap closed, but I imagine many of you would want better. Except for that corner, the overall surfaces do come out flat. I'm going to try John's method, too, and we may switch if it's fast enough.

6strings, I'm not exactly sure what you're describing. Are your surfaces flat? We do get saw-marks in a semi-circular pattern, but as long as our feed is slow and blade is sharp, these are pretty faint, and haven't interfered with glue-up.
Author:  segovia [ Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Band Saw or Table Saw for Scarf Joint
Hi

I am approaching the point when I need to make this joint, I think I will try all three methods on some test wood first.

Band saw
Table saw
Manual cut

Has anyone ever raised table saw into the neck to make the cut, seems scary to me ?

John
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