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| Action keeps getting higher..... http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=24179 |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Action keeps getting higher..... |
One of my guitars seems to keep moving, causing the action to raise. It is over 2 years old, has been returned once with the action quite high, repaired and sent back. That was about a year ago. I took the neck of and adjusted the neck angle. It went out perfect - 3/8" string height and low action. (I love bolt on necks for this reason.) The owner just contacted me and says it once again has action that is too high. It is stored in an Ameritage case with humidity control. I believe that he controls the humidity. He has always said that he loves the guitar and gets great compliments on it when he takes it out. This guitar is not any different than the others I have made. This is the only one that has this trouble. This guitar has a pretty large transverse brace and double sides. Engelmann top on White oak back and sides. Has anyone experienced this? Do some guitars just move more than others? Will this stop? |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
How did you brace it ,also are you sure it is the neck block , or is the top deforming? There is something amiss that it would need a rest so soon. john |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
Here is a picture during construction. This was my seventh guitar. It is very similar to my other's that have no issues. Unfortunately, it is on the other side of the country right now, but I've asked him to see if something looks like it has changed. 
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
This just in for the owner who will be taking it to his favorite tech on Saturday. I asked him to look it over including neck relief. Quote: I'll have a full report on the guitar after Saturday's visit...don't think the top has moved (no visible signs of bellying or bulging), and I'm certain the guitar isn't over--humidified. As for the neck relief, I am less certain there. I'll try to take a look this evening and let you know, and if you have any other ideas in the mean time let me know.
It continues to sound and look WONDERFUL. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
It looks to me like the end of the UTB at the cutaway is not tucked,, simply chopped to let the top aand kerfing sit flush ... IMO, this is not so good ... on cutaways I taper that end down such that it gets tucked into the notch in the linings, just like your other upper bout braces. If its not, then its basically unsupported and that area of the top can collapse down some from the necks forward torque .. seen it happen. Dont be surprised if the top is not bellying, but the neck area is collapsing, causing the lie of the FB to shoot low at the bridge .. higher action. |
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| Author: | Jimmy Caldwell [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
Steve, One thing you might check is top deformation around the soundhole. It appears from the picture that the UTB is not notched into the linings on the cutaway end and thus offers no support on that end. If that's the case, then the neck block has probably rotated and the soundhole could be sinking in. Check the top with a straight edge and see how the area around the soundhole looks. The neck block design will take some of that load, but over time, it's likely that it won't fully support the top by itself. If that's what's happening, I'd probably remove the back, correct the block angle, and build a new UTB that is supported on both ends. If your UTB is fully supported, then something else must be going on, but without a hands on inspection, it's tough to tell. |
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| Author: | Burton LeGeyt [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
It could be the back also. Any flattening of the backs dome leaves more area than before and would allow the bottom of the heel to go out. You usually see the crease in the FB though at the body joint unless the top is caving in also. I had a few creep up on me in the summer and securing the extension solved that pretty well. (I had left them tight down but not glued etc...) Did you have any deformation along the FB when you checked it out? |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
TonyKarol wrote: It looks to me like the end of the UTB at the cutaway is not tucked,, ......... Thanks Tony. That must be it. Now to get it back and fix it. Learning can be harsh! |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
Yeah ... um .. not sure exactly how you do that without dismantling the guitar ... nasty. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
TonyKarol wrote: Yeah ... um .. not sure exactly how you do that without dismantling the guitar ... nasty. Since it should have been tucked under the kerfed lining and side, I'm thinking a block bonded to the side and butted against the transverse brace should do the trick. It wouldn't be pretty, but it should hold. One way to find out! |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
Steve: Wonder what happened to the picture of the inside of your guitar...??? |
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| Author: | KiwiCraig [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
Steve Saville wrote: TonyKarol wrote: Yeah ... um .. not sure exactly how you do that without dismantling the guitar ... nasty. Since it should have been tucked under the kerfed lining and side, I'm thinking a block bonded to the side and butted against the transverse brace should do the trick. It wouldn't be pretty, but it should hold. One way to find out! I don't think your solution will help a whole lot Steve .As I see it , you have two problems. The first being you didn't tuck the brace into the linings . Adding a block bonded to the side to support it may help , but the biggest problem is the fact that the Transverse brace doesn't SPAN the upper bout . It stops at the headblock , then you have another little piece glued in on the cutaway side. As a repairman, I've seen a lot of deep cutaways use this design . Generally, they all tend to cave in. If you were determined to have such a deep cutaway , a better method would have been to slant the transverse brace on an angle, so that it SPANS the complete upper bouts. I would suggest you do this. Only last week I had a friend over with his Takamine cutaway . He hasn't had it all that long and was complaining of a high action . Exactly the same deal . Deep cutaway with the transverse finishing halfway at the headblock. Result : caved in I'm hoping this doesn't sound too blunt Steve , but if you try and take shortcuts ,you can expect the results. Good luck with the repair |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Action keeps getting higher..... |
Thank you all for you suggestions here and the PM's and emails. I am quite fortunate to have such a great group to get help and advice from! I should have the guitar in my possession next week and begin the repair, unless someone wants to do it for me.  I was really concerned that I might have done the same stupid thing on other guitars. Fortunately I have pretty good records. Of the 19 guitars I have made, this is the only one that I know had this. There are 17 that I know did not, and one other that I can't be sure about. I just sent an email to that owner. I can't stand that there might be another out there like that. This was my 8th guitar, and the first one that I designed the bracing scheme for. It was all good, except for one part.  ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad")
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