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| Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=24166 |
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| Author: | Neil Gardiner [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Building a neck with multiple pieces with a block heel. So it's all going great til I start carving and I find the heel doesn't quite line up. Any ideas on a fix. Hoping I don't have to remake the neck. I was thinking of trying to cut it off at the neck/heel join and maybe putting a thin decorative layer between where the neck joins the heel. What do you think? Oh, of course I have fretted already  Neil Here's pictures:   
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| Author: | Bill Hodge [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Hey Neil, That looks like a tough one since you've already got the neck carved down so much. Were it still in the pre-shaping stage of the 1st pic I'd say band saw the block off and re-glue it using a couple of slim dowels to align it properly. There is no pic from the tenon end so I can't see if it is aligned properly there. If it is, there's a chance that just a wee bit more carving where the block meets the neck shaft might bring it close enough to not be very noticeable. I wouldn't give that a ton of hope though. The more you take off because it's carved so much now, the more likely it will weaken the heel structurally. That can be fixed somewhat by removing the fretboard and gluing a well fitting hardwood dowel down through the center of the heel. I'm only guessing based on the pics but having it in my hands would give me a more accurate chance at proper judgement. Cool looking neck BTW if you can salvage it. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | jordan aceto [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
That's why sunbursts were invented (seriously), i would make the heel black. |
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| Author: | Danny R. Little [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Neil: I like your lamination design. Before trashing the neck, I would try to taper the outside border laminations of the heel that don't match up from say an inch before the glue joint to meet the outside lamination on the neck. Then, taper the outside border lamination of the neck to match with the heel. To be clear, you would be removing a sliver of mahogany on each side of your central strip design and filling it in with the appropriate matching wood. I'd leave the inside laminations as is. Since you already have it carved out, you would have to use a chisel and your excellent hand/eye coordination. But, since the error is on the curve, the slight taper should not be noticeable. Of course you will still see it. Danny R. Little |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Other than to stain the heel dark, I don't see how you can salvage this. I recommend that you build another neck. Don't try to hard to save a component that has gone wrong. The problem has existed since you glued up the neck blank and you should just make a new one. Instead of laminating up a neck and a heel and then gluing them together, You should glue up a neck and a heel without the center lamination. You then slice the neck down the middle and then glue in your laminations and glue the whole thing up. You won't get that stair step. You'll be surprised how quickly the second neck for a guitar goes. You might be able to save the fretboard if you remove it carefully but I wouldn't bother with that. |
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| Author: | mateo4x4 [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Do a decorative inlay at the meeting point of the two lines? Maybe something that would nicely match your rosette design or if you have a logo, drop that in there. Hmmm....a mini-version of a personal logo inlaid into the curve of the heal as a 'trademark style' sort of thing....hmmm. As usual...I am full of ideas. Whether or not they are any good is up to you.  -Matthew |
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| Author: | Randolph [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
I say decorative inlay as well. Maybe two small dark plugs (over the misaligned spots) and then find a way to incorporate the plugs in another spot or two (perhaps the peghead area) so the design looks intentional. |
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| Author: | Edward Taylor [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Personally, on a neck thats already so busy I think an inlay of any sort could easily make it look overdone. If you think you have any shot at what Fillipo mentioned I would go for it, sounds very possible. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
You have some good suggestions already. If it is for a customer, you need to fix it. If this is for you, just leave it. It will serve as a reminder of thing learned. You could cut it off at the miss alignment and then re attach it. |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Anyone with much of an eye will still notice the misaligned center stripes even with inlay. Inlay there would just not look appropriate anyway. If you can remove the heel and reglue it,that's about the only real way to fix the problem,except for the sunburst idea. Do you want a fouled up guitar with your name on it going out there for many years? Sometimes it's just better to bite the bullet and re do it. I've had guitars burst open in the back while I was spraying them outside in too cold weather back in the 60's when I was less experienced. Just learned my lesson,and tore the back off and replaced it. |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
. Just a suggestion  the Padma |
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| Author: | MRS [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
I like padma suggestion. Otherwise i would leave it alone. Is this guitar for you? If so take this as a lesson learned. Don't try anything to drastic or you'll only end up with a bigger mess. If this is going to be a player for yourself who the hell will see that? Thats why stages are dark. To cover up guitar builders mistakes. 
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| Author: | Neil Gardiner [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Thanks everybody for your input. This guitar is for someone. And unfortunately he saw the neck before it was carved and loved it. So, fixing it is really the best option. Special thanks to the Padma for going to the trouble of drawing up that fix. I had played around a bit in Photoshop with a diamond but your is quite elegant. Thanks (or should I say "Blessings") Neil |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
I suppose Padma's inlay is as good a fix as any,short of refixing the heel and lining things up properly. However,I can still see the misalignment. Also,there is no aesthetic reason to suddenly see an inlay in that position on the neck. One of the very greatest lessons makers of anything have to learn is how to design properly. I have seen so many otherwise highly skilled makers of objects who have no idea about good taste. I think one needs to spend a lot of time studying great work and absorb what they see to apply it to their own work. Many never seem to do this. I see absolutely horrible bridge designs,awful shapes,terrible pegheads,and awful (but skillfully done) inlay work in a lot of guitars. Knife makers may be the worst offenders in doing great work that looks terrible because of poor aesthetic judgement. I am not saying that the neck is awful,or that Padma's idea is bad.I am simply saying that there is no aesthetic reason to put an inlay there. Take what I have said without being blinded by offense,and try to use it. I know I may sound high and mighty in this post,but what I have said is true. Fortunately for me,I was lucky enough to spend 3 years with one of the greatest sculptors in the World,and had my eyes opened by him. He is now retired as head of the art department at Harvard. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
I definitely would not try to re-glue the heel. From what I'm seeing it looks like when the edges were lined up the center would be off. An inlay there looks out of place and just serves as a focal point that draws attention to the area that will never be perfect. A burst might look strange as well as the pattern will show up under the lighter parts and disappear into the dark heel. (unless you make the whole neck dark) You may be stuck with making a new neck which is probably the right thing to do plus you get more practice making necks. |
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| Author: | Neil Gardiner [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
George - Thanks for your thoughts. But you're preaching to the converted. My background is in Fine Art. I have taught fine art and printmaking. I make my living in the field of graphic design. I've won quite a few awards for my design work. I would say I have a pretty well developed aesthetic sense. I may or may not use Padma's idea, and though it may not suit your taste, from a design point of view I think it works. Or to paraphrase: "I don't know much about art but I know what I don't hate...and I don't hate Padma's diamond" My concern about the diamond is that it draws attention to the join between the neck and the heel. Have to do more thinking on this one. Worst case I build a new neck. Neil Have to do more thinking on this one. |
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| Author: | mateo4x4 [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
I would use an asymmetrical design (like a stylized letter or such). This will pull the eyes away from the misaligned parts. Maybe the clients last initial? Just a thought.
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Neil Gardiner wrote: Have to do more thinking on this one. Neil ...such nice warm fuzzy worda about me design suggestion...thank you. Ummm regarding thinking... as Milerepa once said. "Do not think! Do not act! Leave your mind in its natural state." blessings the Padma |
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| Author: | Wes McMillian [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
the Padma wrote: Neil Gardiner wrote: as Milerepa once said. "Do not think! Do not act! Leave your mind in its natural state." Hmmm...pardon me while I go sit cross legged on my work bench, huff some hide glue, and will a guitar into existence. I'll let you know how it comes out. Should be my best work yet!
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| Author: | george wilson [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
In the end,the customer(I suppose!) is paying you good money for the guitar. You owe him a good guitar. Sometimes you've just got to re do. Many times I've had to re do projects in making parts for antiques that my super critical customer,who pays well,sees a slight problem that most others wouldn't even notice. Padma's inlay at least does resemble the neck laminations. I did not say it was bad,just doesn't belong there,we agree. |
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| Author: | peterm [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
I wish I could bring a different option to the table but I think redoing it would be the best option since it is for a customer. Just one question, are you the least worried about the integrity of the neck considering multi-piece laminations? |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
I think a redo is best. But.. If you wanted to use Padma's diamond, I think if you were to use a pattern of them (maybe 3) along the neck it would look more "normal" if you will. Just one in an odd spot is very conspicuous. |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
I thought about more diamonds too,but only for a second. I think the OP knows what he has to do since he has art training=new neck. |
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| Author: | Neil Gardiner [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
Hi all I was out in the shop last night drinking a beer and just staring blankly at this for quite a while last night. Not coming to me. Filippo: The idea of the neck was to use off-cuts from other guitars. You end up with all these small pieces of beautiful wood and I always thought there should be something to do with them. The design is supposed to be random. Peter: Do you see an issue with the neck integrity? You have a lot more experience than I. I'd appreciate your thoughts. PS. Just finishing up a Parlour guitar with the Sinker I got from you at the swap meet last year. Looks great and taps awesome. Thanks again everyone for your thoughts. Neil |
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| Author: | Bill Hodge [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Oh Oh Any Ideas on How to Fix This? |
I had the same thought as Peter regarding the structural integrity question but didn't say anything since I wasn't certain. I would think that once you routed the channel for the truss rod and especially if you routed and added CF bars in addition, enough meat will have been removed to potentially cause a problem. The only way I would be confident in multiple small piece lams like that would be if I glued it with epoxy. I could be wrong but it doesn't seem as though it would stand the test of time otherwise. It does look very attractive though. For one of my current builds I made a 7 pc. neck out of Claro, Mesquite, EIR, and Quilted Maple. I'm putting my faith in Fish Glue on this one. |
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