And for some inspiration here's one made by Francis Palmer in 1617, he didn't file a patent - that's "Baroque and Roll"
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| Author: | Josh H [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Well I think I'm ready to dive into the world of fan-fret guitars. I've been looking through the forum archives and around the Internet in general for any articles that talk about designing a multi-scale guitar. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but I'm not finding much. I've found Mike Doolin's article where he shows how to slot the board by hand, but that is about it. If anyone could direct me to some info on designing a multi-scale guitar I would appreciate it. I have a general idea how tho go about this but some detailed info would probably fill in the gaps I am still unsure of. I would also like to know what type of setup people are using to slot their boards. My guess is most people are using their table saw. I also know of at least one builder who uses a radial arm saw. Thanks in advance Josh |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Josh, I use my right arm with a saw in it to cut the fret slots on my multi-scales - but then I do that on all my fretboards. Which aspects of design are of interest to you? Basically it's just like making any other guitar - the degree of difference between the scales comes down to what exactly you are trying to achieve and practical playability limitations and then you do normal guitar making "stuff" to work with the design. Here's a post on one that I made that might be of interest. |
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| Author: | npalen [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
http://www.google.com/patents?q=fanned+frets Patents that will give some of the theory and background on fanned frets. |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
And for some inspiration here's one made by Francis Palmer in 1617, he didn't file a patent - that's "Baroque and Roll" :
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| Author: | npalen [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Dave--Wonder if the patent examiners have seen that photo? Nelson |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
npalen wrote: Dave--Wonder if the patent examiners have seen that photo? Nelson If they had, the patent application would have been rejected. It's moot now, I guess. |
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| Author: | npalen [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
http://www.iusmentis.com/patents/priorart/ I'm of the opinion that an existing patent can be declared invalid if "prior art" is found. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
LOL .. I live in Canada .. there aint no patent. |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
npalen wrote: http://www.iusmentis.com/patents/priorart/ I'm of the opinion that an existing patent can be declared invalid if "prior art" is found. You are correct. However, there is a legal presumption of validity for issued patents. Until someone actually asks the USPTO to re-examine the patent, and provides sufficient evidence to the Patent Office to invalidate the issued patent, and obtains a decision as a result of the re-examination process, it's enforceable. BTW, the "fan fret" patent has expired, so there is no problem making these now. Just be careful what you call them, because Novak owns a Trademark on the expression: "Fanned-fret." Tony - right on! |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
I simply call them what they are .. multiscales. |
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| Author: | npalen [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
SteveCourtright wrote: npalen wrote: http://www.iusmentis.com/patents/priorart/ I'm of the opinion that an existing patent can be declared invalid if "prior art" is found. You are correct. However, there is a legal presumption of validity for issued patents. Until someone actually asks the USPTO to re-examine the patent, and provides sufficient evidence to the Patent Office to invalidate the issued patent, and obtains a decision as a result of the re-examination process, it's enforceable. BTW, the "fan fret" patent has expired, so there is no problem making these now. Just be careful what you call them, because Novak owns a Trademark on the expression: "Fanned-fret." Tony - right on! Yeah, kinda boils down to who's got the most money. In the farm machinery business we call it John Deere. 
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| Author: | Edward Taylor [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
What is the general purpose of a multi-scale fretboard? Or is that itself a whole different thread? |
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| Author: | LRegnier [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Hi All, I would say that prior art exist, so the patent would most likely not hold up. Patents are only applicable in the country of registration. Global patents are real expensive $100,000 plus yearly maintenance fees. Usually when prior art is found lawyers will usually advice to drop the patent because you are just wasting your money. Cheers - Luc |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Hey guys thanks for the info and tips. A number of questions related to the fretboard layout and slotting were answered in Chris's other thread. I wasn't aware of FretFind until Tony mentioned it but it is exactly what I was looking for. I need to sort through some of this stuff and I'll come back with some more specific questions. Dave, Thanks for the info and for posting that pic. Funny how so many of the things that get called "new" are anything but. All the info on the patent does make for an interesting discussion. Ed, A multi-scale guitar can be a real benefit or someone who uses a lot of altered tunings (especially lower tunings). When you tune down on a standard scale guitar you often loose the necessary tension you need to keep the guitar sounding good. Unless the guitar is set up specifically for lower tunings you will often run into problems with buzzing and intonation. Longer scale length help for altered tunings, but the extra scale length is not often needed on the higher strings, and it makes reaching notes more difficult. Multi-scale give you the best of both worlds. Longer scale on the bass string means you can maintain good string tension and proper intonation with lower tunings. Shorter scale on the treble side means that those notes can still be easy to reach. That may not be the best explanation but it gives you some idea of how it works. I'll take some time to process this info and come back with more questions Thanks again. Josh |
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| Author: | Edward Taylor [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
That sounds like a good explanation. I have been getting into altered tunings and low tunings and I definitely know what you mean about buzz. Seems like you see them on a lot of baritones which makes sense. I remember somebody (not on this forum) saying something about the different scales contributing to better accuracy in the intonation or something? |
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| Author: | phil [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
josh, you mention that you know a builder who uses a radial arm saw. similar to that, and a very slick set up, is sheldon dingwall's. he uses a sliding miter saw. he's even got a sort of housing around the blade which only allows a fret slot's depth of blade to protrude below the housing, allowing the housing to ride over a pre-radiused fingerboard. very cool set up!! and a very friendly guy, sheldon is. drop him a line. phil |
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| Author: | Bailey [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Just eyed an Italian made fan fret guitar at the colo Luthiers show last weekend and it intrigued me also. Being a player, I saw some possible gains in the anatomy of the hand and the progressive angle of the frets. The one I saw had a 640 treble to 660 base variance. That looked like an excellent combo for a classical. I may have to dink around with the idea after I get a couple more builds under my belt. I had just broken 2 of my fingernails the morning of the show installing some woodwork...DANG! So I wasn't able to seriously play this guitar. Kent Bailey |
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| Author: | Bailey [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Question: Just to ease my mind (sometimes my brain can't see clearly)....Can the scale length be laid out along the edge of the fretboard or does it need to be laid out where the first 1 and 6 string will hit the fretboard. I am assuming that once the 1st and 6 th. string scale length is determined, you then (question) either set your bridge position to the outer point of the nut to the outer point of the bridge????.....ooooor....measure from nut to actual string placement on bridge. My dim brain says you need to set your bridge and scale length to 1 & 6 string placement on the bridge. As long as all strings in between are then correctly and evenly spaced...intonation should be accurate. Kent Bailey |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
http://www.doolinguitars.com/articles/novax/ Explanation here. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
here is my sled Josh .. pretty simple, but it works. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
There is a fan fret calculator here http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/fret.htm#mozTocId525252 Fred |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Thanks for the pic Tony. That helps, and simple is good For those of you who want to layout a multiscale board be sure to check out Fret Find. http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/index.php Tony posted this in the other thread that is going on multiscale slotting and it looks like a great program. Josh |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
I built an Orpharion years ago,in the 70's,for a good musician whose name I've forgotten. It was definitely something different to do. |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Ok...one more time cover fret board with card board. show middle finger as bar cord on the 12th and draw line on cardboard parallel to finger... then again at around the 19th then at the first. Remove cardboard. place on large table extend the 3 lines till they connect. This is the center for your fand frets for your arm. you may have to slightly fidget this intersection point a bit because of wrist action. simple eh. now choose a string length for your high or low string....you know the angle of the 1st , the 12th and the 19th or any other that you chose to draw... so now lay in the rest of the intersecting frets on that string lenght plus the bridge and nut. All of them - the frets, the bridge and the nut will converge at the center that you found. A straight edge radius from that center, intersecting with the correct fret point on one string will give you the fret slot for all the strings on that board. Set your sloting guide to cut on any of them fret radius lines by rotating the radius around that center you found. This is about the simplest I can get the concept accross...without designing your jiggs for you. Me, I cut em by hand. Seems now days everybody needs to have a gadget to do what luthiers have been doing by hand for longer than me been on this planet. Oh well. blessings the Padma |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fan-fret - info on design and building? |
Bailey wrote: Question: Just to ease my mind ... I am assuming that once the 1st and 6 th. string scale length is determined,...... .Kent Bailey Ya Bailey ...however, 2 arbitrarily chosen string lengths aint gonna do your hand and wrist any favours and is contrary to the whole ergo-nomic fand fret idea. Much better to read my previous post and "find" or determine "YOUR" hand /arm / finger position for bar cords and work from there. No maths needed. Just read the post till you grok it. One size don't fit all! blessings the padma |
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