Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Fishman says: bury max of 50% of saddle in slot-you agree?

The key factor is a perfect fit of the saddle in its slot. Perfect, to me, means no wiggle whatsoever, but the saddle goes in and lifts out easily. Call it a "slip fit" if you will. I consider this important for acoustic response*, but even more so for the response of a UST. If you get the fit right, I don't think the depth matters much. I make my saddle slots about 1/4" deep. (I also back-tilt them so the strings are pushing the saddle more directly down toward the floor of the slot.)

I'm thinking Fishman is probably worried about too much friction between the saddle and the walls of the slot, which could, imaginably, cause problems in the response of the UST. So, once again, if the fit is right, I doubt it's really an issue.

*Admittedly, I'm often amazed by how poorly many saddles fit in their slots, and how the guitars' sound doesn't seem to suffer much. But for a UST to work best, it's just common sense that the saddle and the slot have to be spot-on in every way.

Author:	Ed Haney [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Fishman says: bury max of 50% of saddle in slot-you agree?
Fishman says to have no more than 50% of the saddle buried in the slot (slot dept less than or equal to exposed saddle height). I know they are selling undersaddle pickups, but slot dept must also impact un-amplified guitars. Dan Erlewine says that the slot dept for an acoustic saddle should be 1.5 to 2 times greater than what Fishman recommends (slot debth 1.5 to 2 times the exposes saddle height) - big disagreement here! What is best? What slot depth compared to saddle height do you use? Have you heard a difference depending of your slot depth?

Author:	Todd Rose [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fishman says: bury max of 50% of saddle in slot-you agree?
The key factor is a perfect fit of the saddle in its slot. Perfect, to me, means no wiggle whatsoever, but the saddle goes in and lifts out easily. Call it a "slip fit" if you will. I consider this important for acoustic response, but even more so for the response of a UST. If you get the fit right, I don't think the depth matters much. I make my saddle slots about 1/4" deep. (I also back-tilt them so the strings are pushing the saddle more directly down toward the floor of the slot.) I'm thinking Fishman is probably worried about too much friction between the saddle and the walls of the slot, which could, imaginably, cause problems in the response of the UST. So, once again, if the fit is right, I doubt it's really an issue. Admittedly, I'm often amazed by how poorly many saddles fit in their slots, and how the guitars' sound doesn't seem to suffer much. But for a UST to work best, it's just common sense that the saddle and the slot have to be spot-on in every way.

Author:	woody b [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fishman says: bury max of 50% of saddle in slot-you agree?
I agree with Todd. The proper fit is more important than the measurements. FWIW LR Baggs says "The amount of saddle visible above the bridge surface (with pickup installed) should be no greater than the amount of saddle in the slot beneath the bridge surface; otherwise the balance and output of the pickup may suffer" Isn't this the opposite of what Fishman says?

Author:	Ed Haney [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fishman says: bury max of 50% of saddle in slot-you agree?
Todd Rose wrote: The key factor is a perfect fit of the saddle in its slot. Perfect, to me, means no wiggle whatsoever, but the saddle goes in and lifts out easily. Call it a "slip fit" if you will. I consider this important for acoustic response, but even more so for the response of a UST. If you get the fit right, I don't think the depth matters much. I make my saddle slots about 1/4" deep. (I also back-tilt them so the strings are pushing the saddle more directly down toward the floor of the slot.) I'm thinking Fishman is probably worried about too much friction between the saddle and the walls of the slot, which could, imaginably, cause problems in the response of the UST. So, once again, if the fit is right, I doubt it's really an issue. Admittedly, I'm often amazed by how poorly many saddles fit in their slots, and how the guitars' sound doesn't seem to suffer much. But for a UST to work best, it's just common sense that the saddle and the slot have to be spot-on in every way. Todd, Everything you said here makes sense to me. You rasied an interesting point about the tightness of the saddle fit in the slot. I would have described the proper fit like you, tight - but not so much so that you can't pull it out by hand. That's the way I have always done it. Yet I just got a book by Dan E. and he says saddles should be hard to press in and even literally squeak when pressed in, and you should not be able to get them out without pliers. While this did not make sense to me, who am "little experienced" me to question one like Dan with writes the books, does the videos, and makes his living for years doing this. I guess I am just expressing my frustration at all the significant differences in opinions on guitar building/repair issues. I guess that's why it is still a major part "art". What's the best??

Author:	Ed Haney [ Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fishman says: bury max of 50% of saddle in slot-you agree?
woody b wrote: I agree with Todd. The proper fit is more important than the measurements. FWIW LR Baggs says "The amount of saddle visible above the bridge surface (with pickup installed) should be no greater than the amount of saddle in the slot beneath the bridge surface; otherwise the balance and output of the pickup may suffer" Isn't this the opposite of what Fishman says? Sounds like they are both close to 50% in and 50% out, but they are indeed going in opposite direction regarding which sould be in and out when it is not 50/50. More furstration at typical disagreement if you read my last post immediately above. Ed

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Author:	Todd Rose [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fishman says: bury max of 50% of saddle in slot-you agree?
Ed Haney wrote: I would have described the proper fit like you, tight - but not so much so that you can't pull it out by hand. I wouldn't actually describe the fit I go for as "tight". It's certainly not loose - again, absolutely no wiggle. But it slips in and out easily. Not so easily that it falls out if you take the strings off and turn the guitar upside down, but easily enough to lift it out with your fingers with essentially no effort. I think Dan is wrong on this one. I can't imagine any reason a saddle should be that tight. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Especially when you have a UST in there. There should be nothing interfering with the saddle seating down on the UST - no significant resistance to the string pressure being transferred to the UST. Unless I misunderstand the basics of how USTs work, that seems obvious to me. If there's anything more to what Fishman and Baggs are saying, I'd like to know what it is. I can't imagine what could cause a problem if the saddle slot is a nice "slip fit" like I'm describing and if the bottom of the saddle and the floor of the slot are both perfectly flat and square (assuming a flat UST). How could more wood/saddle contact on the sides of the saddle make any difference? If the fit is loose enough to allow some wiggle, I could imagine how the depth of the slot could make a difference. If the fit is too tight, I can also imagine how the increased friction (or worse - the saddle doesn't even seat fully) of a deeper slot could make a difference. But with a perfect slip fit, how could it make a difference? Maybe I'm missing something; if so, someone please enlighten me.

Author:	woody b [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fishman says: bury max of 50% of saddle in slot-you agree?
I like them pretty tight. I've got strong hands and I like to have to struggle a little, but not have to use tools to pull a saddle out. If using a UST (which is how this thread originated) I like them just a touch looser. I also wax the sides to help keep it from binding.

Author:	bluescreek [ Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fishman says: bury max of 50% of saddle in slot-you agree?
to me tight is when you need to give it a good push to seat , too loose and it will drop in on its own and too tight is when you cannot fit it by hand. I also think that a good surface mate of the saddle to the bridge slot is VERY important.

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