Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

EmTech 6000
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23965		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  EmTech 6000
Well, I do not think I will be using this again. There is no question about the blue haze (on dark wood). The lighter woods (tops) look fine. Someone pointed out that any acrylic containing finish (clear) will have this problem. So I am searching again. I am thinking maybe KTM 2000, I heard good things about it.

Anybody else have feelings ebout EmTech 6000?

Mike
Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Mike, I've only done the one and had no issues with walnut which, of course, is not all that dark. What wood were you spraying were you had the blue haze?
Author:  Danny R. Little [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Mike:

Target makes an amber additive to warm up the tone or you can spray their water based shellac as a base coat, which is my plan. I've yet to do this myself, however.

Danny R. Little
Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
There were some issues reported sometime ago with water-based shellac. Soft finish or something; I don't remember offhand. It was enough to get me to use regular shellac in alcohol instead of the WB shellac. I did use an alcohol based amber shellac as a sealer under the EM6000.
Author:  george wilson [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Acrylic lacquer has a blue resin,which is why acrylic looks so cold. Nitro has yellow resin,looks warm. I have been advised to add some yellow dye to acrylic,but have stayed with nitro. Acrylic is a better lacquer in some ways. I just keep my wood well filled,and use a thin finish over it,to minimize cracking of the finish,and yet have a thick looking finish.
Author:  joekelly9692 [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
hi guys.........i have used the target waterborne stuff a lot over the last few years although i get my stuff through stewmac so i call it colortone wb sealer and colortone wb clear top coat......

im on my 12th guitar with this stuff this year and overall not just on looks i have to say i have settled on this stuff.........

i have a small booth with pro extractors but i still refuse to use nitro. acid catalyst and all the other nasty sh%$ out there ...........looks nice ....but man will it send us small shop luthiers to an early retirement..........

my finishing schedule is z poxy.....2 shellac seal coats 2 wb sealer coats.....drop fill any small doo dahs.......2 more wb seal coats........sand flat with 400 grit (removing most of the wb sealer in the process.....aids clarity)..........4 double coats of wb clear top coat leave for one week then sand and buff.....is use the fuji mini mite and and because of the much much much lesser toxicity of the wb stuff i can make and finish in the same area at the same time

and because i keep the finish thin i never get that awful blue tint.....dont get me wrong..........even the slightest blue hugh can get to us makers........we just have to get used to applying this stuff very thin......and the effects are minimal.....overall this target wb stuff has made me more productive and far less intoxicated bliss

i will post a pic of a sunburst parlour done with the above routine...........when i get the time to upload

joe
Author:  muthrs [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Mike,

I'm the who spoke a bit about the blue haze of acrylic based lacquers. I use KTM-SV, which contains no acrylic. No blue haze, very hard, pretty darn clear and applies great. I've also been able to repair it without witness lines. Search the archives for KTM-SV. I posted a bit of information on it. Once watch out is that the wood needs to be well sealed. I use the heavy duty rosewood sealer by Ilva (same as McFaddons rosewood sealer). It's pretty obnoxious, but I brush it on with good ventilation, it's no big deal and it wets the wood beautifully. Rolf Gerhardt uses multiple coats of shellac.
Author:  Eddie Lee [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Joe,

Can you report yet on how durable the WB finish seem to be over time?
Author:  joekelly9692 [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Quote:
Joe,

Can you report yet on how durable the WB finish seem to be over time?


hi eddie........the hardness and durability of the target wb lacquers are for me as a player.........very acceptable........i like the feel of this stuff also compared to nitro finished necks............but?????? i have read here somewhere that some necks and high ware areas have went gummy eek........not happened to me yet.....

i dont treat my own personal guitar with kid gloves .......and the guitar case i keep it in has those nasty metal liners that the bindings hit every time i take the guitar out of its case....and it seems to take the strain of average use well. (i like the way this stuff takes a dent compared to nitro).....the pic is my own guitar .....about two years old


.the oldest one i have seen latley was sprayed three years ago and made for a family friend who is a folk player who plays in sweaty damp pubs most weekends and it still looks real nice....that one was filled with shellac and dust as well.......

but i have my fingers crossed for its long term durability...........

joe
Author:  Darryl Young [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
I'm considering using spar urethane.......either KTM SV or Epiphanes. Anyone care to compare and contrast these two?
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
KTM-SV... thanks Muthrs, that was what I meant. And it's water borne. I absolutely LOVE the feel of EmTech 6000. No issues there. But at glancing angles, I can most def see the blue haze. The wood, BTW, was BRW. On lighter woods, I do not see the haze. So it has its place. The stuff is so easy to use! I guess the problem I had was not getting a good initial fill. So maybe too many coats? I followed Rod True's schedule, so maybe he will chime in with his results.

I am building a maple guitar, so maybe I will use EmTech 6000 on that.

Joe:

so your total number of EmTech 6000 coats is 8? BTW, I have found drop filling with the stuff difficult and dissappointing. Seems the surface tension causes it to bend right down into pores. I have yet to hear a good solution other than to let some eveaporate in a cup to get thicker.

What Water borne sealer are you using?

Mike
Author:  muthrs [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Darryl, the KTM-SV is waterborne and can be sprayed, which is what I do.

KTM-SV applies as well, if not better, than the Target stuff. It is also much harder, levels great (I start leveling my second set of coats with P1000), and it will not dissolve in some player's hands. I tried Target products for a number of years and quite honestly I see no advantage of EM-6000 over KTM-SV and many advantages to using KTM-SV. If someone can tell me of one advantage to EM-6000, I'd like to hear it.

Please note, KTM-SV has nothing to do with KTM-9.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Randy, I am ordering a gallon of the KTM-SV.

Use of explosive & toxic chemicals is simply not an option for me.

Oh, have you ever used any tinting with KTM-SV to warm it up a bit?

Mike
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Danny R. Little wrote:
Mike:

Target makes an amber additive to warm up the tone or you can spray their water based shellac as a base coat, which is my plan. I've yet to do this myself, however.

Danny R. Little


Please keep me (us) updated on the use of the amber additive.

Mike
Author:  joekelly9692 [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
hi mike.........the sealer i use is the target stuff with stewmacs brand on it. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents/ColorTone_Waterbase_Guitar_Lacquers/ColorTone_Waterbase_Sanding_Sealer.html

it sands and powders very nice if left over night............i really enjoy spraying this stuff with hvlp i get a real good finish of the gun and go right to 1200 grit for final rub down........i also use the the tintalls from stewmac to warm this stuff up....mostly the vintage amber and orange on coco.....see pics below.....

i have done extensive testing for drop fills with the clear top coat water base lacquer and here is what i have found

you must have good technique and be practiced at leveling drop fills on all areas of a guitar ....i use files both flat and bent with cellotape on the edges of the files and simply file the fill flush.......but i drop fill what i have to after i have level sanded the sealer and leave the buldge until the clear coats have been done and deal with them at final sanding stage.. wow7-eyes
this is risky if you have not practiced the techniques you need......as sanding through is likley if your are heavy hand.......by doing it this way the fill is rock solid in the week and is easy to file and level.......i dont need to scrape the fill..as the file do a great job.....joe
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Randy,
Can you comment on the odour of KTM-SV? Does it smell like a solvent based finish or is it less noxious?
Thanks
Author:  muthrs [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
You can tint the KTM-SV if you want to. I prefer not to. It does not have that cold look to it, but it is not amber either.

Since it is waterborne and not solvent based, it does not have an obnoxious odor. In fact, it has much less of an ammonia smell than the acrylic based finishes. Almost no odor at all.

Just make sure that you seal the wood well. I use two coats of Ilva's catalyzed urethane sealer with no sanding. I get this from Camger. This is solvent based, but I brush it on with a disposable foam brush and good ventilation. Very little is needed, two coats for the whole guitar only takes 50 mL. Alternately, I would use maybe four coats of shellac with little or no sanding. I don't have experience with this though, as the catalyzed sealer guarantees I have no problems and wets the wood beautifully.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
muthrs wrote:
You can tint the KTM-SV if you want to. I prefer not to. It does not have that cold look to it, but it is not amber either.

Since it is waterborne and not solvent based, it does not have an obnoxious odor. In fact, it has much less of an ammonia smell than the acrylic based finishes. Almost no odor at all.

Just make sure that you seal the wood well. I use two coats of Ilva's catalyzed urethane sealer with no sanding. I get this from Camger. This is solvent based, but I brush it on with a disposable foam brush and good ventilation. Very little is needed, two coats for the whole guitar only takes 50 mL. Alternately, I would use maybe four coats of shellac with little or no sanding. I don't have experience with this though, as the catalyzed sealer guarantees I have no problems and wets the wood beautifully.


Two questions: 1.) Do you use epoxy? Or is your sealer the filler? 2.)Why would you not sand the shellac? Won't there be nibs and stuff?
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Randy,

Have you looked at or tested the Epiphanes (sp?) spar varnish? I'm curious how it compares to the KTM product.
Author:  Ken C [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Mike,

I have used TC's USL in the past and switched to EM6000 for the last two guitars--one maple, one SE Asian rosewood. I too was disappointed with the blue cast from the EM6000/EM8800 on the SE Asian rosewood guitar after it was done. However, I sprayed that guitar back in May/June, and the blue haze is all but gone now. In fact I was commenting to my wife a couple of nights ago about how the finish had cleared up. The maple SJ never had a noticeable blue haze, and that guitar is with its new owner, so I can't really comment on how that finish looks now.

I used two coats of TC's EM8800 as sealer coats on those two guitars, which is the first time I have used that product. I actually felt the blue haze came from the EM8800 rather than the EM6000. But I don't know for sure. I am going back to simply using a thinned coat of the top coat as my sealer and building up a dozen coats from there. I had great success with USL using this approach and want to see if the EM6000 can do as well. I have also noticed that sealing with EM8800 doesn't give the nice soft amber hues I got from using the thinned topcoat as a seal coat. This is where a tint would come in handy, but I plan to shoot the mad rose OM in a couple of weeks with EM6000 only.

I really didn't take many pictures of the SE Asian OM when it was done as I broke my camera. I'll look, though, and see if I can find some comparative pictures. I can certainly shoot some pictures now.

Has anyone else who had blue haze in their EM6000 finish noticed it going away over time?

Ken


Mike O'Melia wrote:
Well, I do not think I will be using this again. There is no question about the blue haze (on dark wood). The lighter woods (tops) look fine. Anybody else have feelings ebout EmTech 6000?

Mike
Author:  muthrs [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Mike,

I pore fill with epoxy and then use the sealer. The sealer is water thin and will not fill anything. Because the sealer is so thin, I do not sand for fear of sanding through the sealer. If you are using shellac, you certainly could knock off nibs. If you see wood color on your paper though, I would recoat. Rolf Gerhardt of Phoenix Mandolins uses KTM-SV with shellac as a sealer. He has published his schedule online as well as in a past GuitarMaker magazine. He doesn't use many oily woods though, i.e. rosewoods.

If you leave a thin coat of epoxy on the wood, that may be enough of a sealer. I don't really know. The sealer I use is the same stuff that those who spray polyester use. Polyester is extremely sensitive to rosewood oil and so is KTM-SV. I got burned once using shellac as a sealer and I know Rolf said it requires multiple coats. If there is a negative to KTM-SV it would be its sensitivity to oily woods, but it is a total non-issue for me now. The sealer I use solves all potential problems with interactions between the wood and the finish, guaranteed. So I never went back. I just brush it on, wait 2 hours, brush on a second coat, wait 2 hours and start spraying. Any fine ridges from brushing on the sealer disappear under the finish. In fact the compatibility between the sealer and finish is outstanding.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Thanks Randy.

Ken, I have not seen it go away, cannot imagine why it would. When I sprayed the stuff, areas where it would concentrate (neck heel/body joint) it actually looked blue there when it was wet. Now, as it dries, that part of the color dissapears. But under the right lighting conditions, I can still see it. I have to say that Joe Kelly is on to something here with his spray schedule and thin coats. I intend to experiment with Joe's and Randy's techniques.

BTW, I love the way it feels along the neck.

Mike
Author:  muthrs [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Darryl,

I've not used Epiphanes, but I believe it is a brush on, solvent based varnish that would require a long dry time between coats. It would be like applying any other oil based varnish. KTM-SV is a waterborne product that is designed for spraying. It is dry to the touch in 15 minutes. They are really two different things in terms of application. A lot of people, including Al Carruth, use Behlen's Rockhard as a brush on varnish. There is a lot of information in the archives if you want to go that route.
Author:  Ken C [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
Truly, my SE Asian OM had a heavy blue cast that was easily visible when viewed from the slightest angle. This was after the finish had dried and had been buffed out. That blue cast is now largely gone. After I first noticed the blue cast, I spoke with Jeff Weiss at TC about it, and he noted that EM6000 is very similar to USL except for a few improvements and attributed the issue to the EM8800. I never had blue hazing issues with USL, and I used 12 to 14 coats of finish then. So given my experience with USL and that EM6000 is essentially the same, my thoughts are not that "I cannot imagine why it would", but more "cannot imagine why it would not." Hopefully we will hear from a few others.

Ken

Mike O'Melia wrote:
Ken, I have not seen it go away, cannot imagine why it would. Mike
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EmTech 6000
I see.....one is water based and one isn't.

For the record, in their advertising it's claimed that you can spray Epifanes (the correct spelling, yeah!) using conventional air spray or HVLP. Now I've have no clue if it's true or not, but it's cliamed you can.

Here are the Tech. Specs.:

Technical Specifications
Container Size: 250 ml., 500 ml.,1000 ml., 5000 ml.
Color:Clear Amber
Gloss: Ultra High Gloss
Density: 0.92 kg./liter
Solids Content : 55 +/- 2 vol. %
Drying times at 65F / 65% RH: Tack free - 3 hours / Tape free - 24 hours Dry - 12 hours / Recoatable - 24 hours
Recommended Film Thickness: Per coat wet - 50 micron / Per coat dry - 30 micron

Application: Brush, roller, conventional air spray, HVLP

Temperatures should be between 50 degrees F and 85 degrees F for application, with air humidity below 85 percent. Avoid varnishing in too much sun or wind, a rapid loss of solvents will occur under these conditions and will decrease the flowing ability. Epifanes Clear Gloss Varnish is compatible with most other types of one-component alkyd or urethane based varnishes and over two-component varnishes.
Page 1 of 3 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/