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| To SawStop or not... http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23953 |
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| Author: | sprouseod [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | To SawStop or not... |
Well the time has come for me to invest in what usually the centerpiece of your work shop, the table saw. Over the last couple of years I have taken my time and bought quality new shop tools which I hope will last for many years to come. Brock's recent post about the $699 Unisaw got my wallet itching and one of the candidates is the Professional cabinet Sawstop model. My questions are this, for those who have a Sawstop tell me the good bad and ugly what are your likes and dislikes about the $3k+ piece of equipment? My other question is for anyone, money aside would this be your fist choice in table saw because of the safety features, if not why, and what would you recommend? I realize there are a bizillion post on the web about Sawstop which is why I tried to be more specific? As always thanks for the info Richard |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
If I were in the market for a new table saw and money were not an object (it always is though) I'd get the saw stop, just as extra insurance. Having said that, Money is always an object. I made a rule for myself to NEVER, EVER go into the shop if I'm even somewhat tired. I don't ever want to risk a finger or limp because I was stupid and was a bit tired and didn't respect the machines (or any tool for that matter). So, if I were in the market for a new table saw, and seeing as money is an object, and the fact that millions of other's have tables saws that are not the saw stop and have used them for decades without incident, I would have to look at other options. I think I'd be looking at the Grizzly G0691. It's got more than enough power for anything I'd ever need in a table saw. It has a riving knife which essentially eliminates kickback, and is left tilt to boot. The Grizzly saws have been getting better reviews as of late and I think it would be a fine saw to have. Using any tool properly never can eliminate accidents, however making sure you do use them right, respecting them (not using them for something they are not designed for) and using them when you are fully allert can get you very close to accident free. The real question is, are you confident in using what millions of others have been using for decades? A table saw that does not have the saw stop feature. |
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| Author: | sprouseod [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Hi Todd, yea the G0690 is definitely on the short list, in fact if you bring the soon to be outdated Unisaw @ $699 up to spec with the Grizzly they actually cost about the same. I don't make a living building guitars and probably never will but what I do make a living at would be severely affected if I were to permanently injure a hand or part of a hand. However one of my main concerns about the Sawstop is the longevity of the company. If I am not mistaken(maybe I read it on this forum or another while researching this) is that if they ever go out of business and the safety stop is engaged you then have a very expensive door stop. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think that is the case with Grizzly, PM, Jet Delta etc. R |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
You can't run a 6" fret slotting blade on the Sawstop. I was all set to spring for one when I talked to the company and found that out. I opted for the Unisaw. TJK |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
We have a Powermatic Cabinet saw over at the Wood Worker's guild. That is on Sweet saw! Good luck on your decision. |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Money no object. Martin, Felder, or a old Olmea. Or, Saw stop or check out Rojek. L |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Terence Kennedy wrote: You can't run a 6" fret slotting blade on the Sawstop. I was all set to spring for one when I talked to the company and found that out. I opted for the Unisaw. TJK Really? So, what about stacked dado blades? I would think they would have to have accounted for that... |
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| Author: | Edward Taylor [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Maybe it is just that a fret slotting blade does not have enough strength to withstand the de-acceleration and would shred rather than stop? |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
The standard brake is for a 10" blade. You have to buy a separate brake cartridge and table insert for an 8" dado blade and then it will work. There is a cutout for the safety feature if you are cutting damp wood or anything that might trip the brake by accident. It still won't start however unless the saw senses a blade compatible with the installed brake. From what the company told me there is no way you could run a 6" fret slotting blade. |
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| Author: | Chas Freeborn [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
I own a SawStop, and as I've said in other threads I wouldn't own anything else it it's class. I have owned pretty much all of them in the past (Unisaw, P'matic 66, P'matic 68, Delta contractors....) and none of them come close to the quality of the SS. If we're talking a serious panel saw then a Martin (saw, not guitar... German built, sliding table, slitting blade..but I digress...) Anyway use search to read up on previous comments by me and others. As for the 6" blade issue, it's true you can't even start the saw if it does not sense the proper clearance between the safety mechanism and the blade.I personally slot on another sliding table saw I have in my shop dedicated to slotting, kerfing and cut off. If you were determined to slot on the table saw a good saw shop can take an 8" high speed steel blade (the old fashioned "plywood" blades work well) and have the first 1/4" or so of the cutting depth ground down to your preferred slot width. I learned this trick from John Greven, who uses a radial arm saw to slot fretboards with an 8" blade modified this way. Try to think outside the box ( or luthiers catalog) when problem solving. There're lots of ways to skin a cat. -C |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Rod True wrote: Terence Kennedy wrote: You can't run a 6" fret slotting blade on the Sawstop. I was all set to spring for one when I talked to the company and found that out. I opted for the Unisaw. TJK Really? So, what about stacked dado blades? I would think they would have to have accounted for that... Yes, you can use a dado, but I believe you have to switch the saftey cartridge also. I don't think Saw Stop is in danger of going out of business. Plenty of places that simply cannot afford the risk (schools for example) are using them almost exclusively. And you know how other companies use similar strategies to assure that when the young folks frow up and buy their own tools, they will think SawStop (MS, Matlab, Autocad, etc) I have a friend that has a rubber hand with a finger missing hanging from the ceiling right above where his head would be when using his table saw. Seems it does a good job of reminding him every time! Mike |
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| Author: | george wilson [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
I was an actual owner. Before I retired,I bought a Saw Stop for my shop there. You MUST use only 10" blades. You MUST buy an 8" dado,and buy their brake for the 8" dado. Throatplates are MUCH more involved to make than ordinary ones. Since I am also a machinist,I could make them,but it was just easier to buy them. So,be prepared to buy them. You CANNOT use your 6" fret blade,or any other blade that isn't 10". 10" blades vary a little in diameter,so you must adjust the brake if you change blades,even 10" blades. I had to adjust the brake to install a Forrest WW11. It was 9 15/16" in dia.. Don't cut damp wood. It will fire the brake. Don't hit the aluminum miter gauge on the blade. It will fire the brake. I mean an aftermarket Incra or other long fenced miter gauge. I bought the saw since my replacement was a good metal worker,but new to woodworking. We had also been having trouble with our 1950's vintage Unisaw. Even when you TURN OFF the safety features on the saw,you MUST still satisfy the needs of the saw as to blade diameter,etc.. I don't know why this is,as you are disabling the brake feature. I didn't like being stuck with only a 4" dust port. Mine at home has 6" to get plenty of air velocity in the cabinet. I don't think you can modify the dust port without major surgery. There is a plastic liner around the blade to direct the dust. I don't know where long,thin sticks get lodged(when cutting liners,struts,etc.) Be very sure to NOT contaminate the saw by cutting any metal,including mirror plexiglas,or you may have a false firing of the brake,ruining the $80.00 brake,and the blade,too. I had an architectural model maker friend who had several brakes and blades ruined,from metal dust from cutting plexiglass mirror. If you are prepared to do without your speciality blades(which I am not),buy the saw. It will not cut you if the brake is on. It is a high quality saw,and very nice looking. |
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| Author: | sprouseod [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Apparently SS is raising the price after 10/05/09 by $400, basically removing the free shipping that is currently in place. Oddly enough I found a used one, one year old that is about 45 min from me. It is the 52" 3hp industrial model with lots of extras for basically the same price as a new 36" professional model. My biggest issue is that you lose the warranty with the used one. Decision, decisions  R |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
If you have the money spare then don't even consider anything else, get the Sawstop. I speak as someone who has lost part of his fingers, OK in a road accident not a saw one, but believe me, until you have lost some bits, you don't realise how much you enjoyed having them intact. Why risk it if you don't have to. Colin Attachment: 010.jpg
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
I wonder why SS will not make a brake for the smaller blades? Maybe there is not enough momentum to drop the trunion down? You should not have to compromise when you buy a saw as expensive as the SS. Until reading this thread, I had no idea that you could not use smaller blades. Still, I am going to get one. Colin, are you back working in the shop? I remember your horrible incident. Mike |
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| Author: | sprouseod [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
So I came to an agreement on price with the gentleman with the local SS industrial cabinet saw. Looks like I will be picking it up in a week or so. thanks for all the great input. I will post some picks when I get it setup Richard |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Mike O'Melia wrote: on down? Colin, are you back working in the shop? I remember your horrible incident. Mike Yes Mike I'm building again, here's a couple of threads of my stuff since the accident. http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23811 http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23606 Colin |
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| Author: | sprouseod [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Hi Todd, I think I have heard the story before. I have seen that happen before. I am a eye doc by profession/ We had a similar situation about 12 years ago when laser refractive surgery was just getting approval by the FDA here in the states. the two big players who were fighting for approval first ended up forming a company together that licensed the excimer laser technology so no matter who got approval first ever time a surgeon turned that laser on there was a licensing fee regardless of who's laser it was. Capitalism at its finest.  R |
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| Author: | Bailey [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Been using tables saws for 40 years in woodworking business. For guitar making...I can't imagine needing anything more than a 10" and if space is an option, many portable on wheel options now. Be warned...you get what you pay for. Cheap adjustments/cheap fence/plastic cranks will make your life miserable. At least go mid range on most brands. Table saws have been equipped with safety features (beyond what people actually use) for some time now. Personal Injuries have made these features happen. If you use your table saw with proper respect and FEAR for what it can do to you, you will probably survive with all digits in tact. I've nicked a knuckle and a finger (lucky man) and it happens too fast to react. It wasn't the saws fault...I wasn't paying attention. The sawstop is a great idea. Unfortunately, I need too many options for blades for it's use and I do mill/rip some damp wood on occasion....so ,I'd be replacing the brake$$$$$$often. My guess is an innovative brake theory is being researched by others and we'll see something else in the near future. kent bailey |
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| Author: | Edward Taylor [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Todd Stock wrote: Quote: Capitalism at its finest. Capitalism at work building the better mousetrap...trying to coerce us into using it through government intervention was more along the lines of coopting Big Government socialism...guess anything goes, but that was a little too far for me. I did not have any issue with SawStop's attempt to interest Delta, etc., but I punched off a couple of letters against requiring the technology when CPSC was working the petition. Not the dreaded "S" word! But I digress... what a turn off from such a great invention. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
Colin S wrote: Mike O'Melia wrote: on down? Colin, are you back working in the shop? I remember your horrible incident. Mike Yes Mike I'm building again, here's a couple of threads of my stuff since the accident. http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23811 http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=23606 Colin Good for you! Note to Bailey: The SawStop has a lockout feature so you can cut green wood. Of course, in this mode, you are not protected. Mike |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
I'm late to this thread, but, while I think SS was a good invention, I don't find myself being convinced that it is really safer. Yes, it is while using that saw, but if one moves to another saw, I'm thinking it will create careless habits. Instead of training ones self in the proper use of a saw, you're not worried that you'll get cut. I suppose the $80 or so that you have to fork out, will help, but it isn't the same as thinking you are going to loose a finger if you screw up. Of course, this is just my opinion. |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: To SawStop or not... |
That is like saying if you wear seat belts you will be more careless as a driver. I have insurance so I will not worry about taking care of my health. When you are faced with a 10" spinning saw blade I doubt one would be cavalier. If I placed you in front of a SS and said stick your finger in there would you do it. Even knowing that it works I wouldn't. I doubt I would do it for a suitcase of money. In the shop some people know what they are doing and practice good techniques, some folks are lax about it and some just don't know any better. My shop partner does some things that make me hold my breath. Scares me. He doesn't have SS. I wish he did. He somehow gets away with it for now. No amount of admonishment on my part makes a lasting impression. I would buy one in a nano second (about the time it takes to lose a few fingers) if I had the money. I have never understood the resistance to this technology. I am a pro woodworker. I am very aware and have a healthy fear of my shop tools however my profession requires I work fast, sometimes late, and sometimes tired. That is part of the job. I have had some close calls and injuries. I agree that ones self is the most important safety feature. Just as driving defensively and safely is the prudent thing to do. A SS wouldn' make me feel any safer (kick back and other things can happen ) but it would give me some protection. I wish I had it. I want to continue to play the guitar. Link |
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